You're emotional about this. I think all of us understand that and can give you some grace because of it. But this thread isn't going to be productive for you. I think we should all let this thread go.

Agreed

dermdoc said:

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Illustrious Potentate said:

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I think both quotes above deserve being posted again.

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Agree. I just think saying the dead girls families are out for money or vengeance is way out of line on an Ag forum. I would have apologized but then I am an old Ag and different I guess.

Read schmelba's posts and picture yourself as someone who lost a little girl. He not only claimed we were after money he also told me how I should respond. And don't be emotional. Does he completely lack self awareness and does not understand how arrogant and condescending that sounds? Who is he to tell me or the victims how to respond? And this is Musrer of all days. Ags should be better.

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This is a message board. If that is his opinion, so be it. Call him an a-hole one time and move the heck on.

This particular board is filled with folks from young to old with varying levels of experience and certainly varying opinions and definitely various levels of give a damn. There are TWO threads where people have bitten their tongue and tiptoed around for the sake of being respectful and sensitive...for almost a year.

There are more folks than just you trying to make sense of this and whether you like it or not, lots of folks do support Camp Mystic (right or wrong) and are looking at this from a perspective different than yours.

These families filed lawsuits. Gloves are off. We can speak freely now.

This is a fantastic case for people to be able to read, learn, understand, and discuss opinions, back and forth, and not be blasted, shamed, and dogpiled because it doesn't align with your opinion.

Benny the Jet Rodriguez said:

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You're emotional about this. I think all of us understand that and can give you some grace because of it. But this thread isn't going to be productive for you. I think we should all let this thread go.

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Do you think I deserve an apology for being accused of chasing money by another Aggie!? I expected more on here. And nobody called him out. Yet I have been repeatedly called out for saying much, much less.
And we have people worrying about the effect of the sale of Mystic will be on them? And their property?
Yeah, that pisses me off. And I am not really emotional. Just disappointed. I would be very happy to confront these allegations with Mary Grace's family face to face.
Gig 'em.

BrazosDog02 said:

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dermdoc said:

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Illustrious Potentate said:

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I think both quotes above deserve being posted again.

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Agree. I just think saying the dead girls families are out for money or vengeance is way out of line on an Ag forum. I would have apologized but then I am an old Ag and different I guess.

Read schmelba's posts and picture yourself as someone who lost a little girl. He not only claimed we were after money he also told me how I should respond. And don't be emotional. Does he completely lack self awareness and does not understand how arrogant and condescending that sounds? Who is he to tell me or the victims how to respond? And this is Musrer of all days. Ags should be better.

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This is a message board. If that is his opinion, so be it. Call him an a-hole one time and move the heck on.

This particular board is filled with folks from young to old with varying levels of experience and certainly varying opinions and definitely various levels of give a damn. There are TWO threads where people have bitten their tongue and tiptoed around for the sake of being respectful and sensitive...for almost a year.

There are more folks than just you trying to make sense of this and whether you like it or not, lots of folks do support Camp Mystic (right or wrong) and are looking at this from a perspective different than yours.

These families filed lawsuits. Gloves are off. We can speak freely now.

This is a fantastic case for people to be able to read, learn, understand, and discuss opinions, back and forth, and not be blasted, shamed, and dogpiled because it doesn't align with your opinion.

---

Okay. I am fine with that. And will not waste anymore time on schmelba.

Is it wrong for me to give my opinion that I think it is wrong to be worried about what happens to the Camp Mystic land before there is even a lawsuit? Or before Cole Garner's body is found? So if my opinion is different than theirs and the majority on this board I should stay in my place?

You might go back and read the thread. I was the only one who called schmelba out. So is it a dogpole if I am the only one? Didn't realize I carried that much weight.I have been criticized far more than he was. Worth noting.

I read it. It's not something i would have said, but I also have no idea what the families 'intentions' are on lawsuits, and I don't particularly care as I have no problem whatsoever even if that IS what they want to do. It is the next logical step in this entire process and I see no issue whatever with it.

I will totally admit my own hypocrisy that even if I eventually sided with Camp Mystic, if it was my kid that died, I would sue the pants off of everyone and anyone I possibly could, alongside other parents. There is no amount of money that can bring a child back, but we can sure as hell make the damages so extreme that no one ever forgets it. What they do with that money, is not my business or my concern and it will carry no judgment at all.

BrazosDog02 said:

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I read it. It's not something i would have said, but I also have no idea what the families 'intentions' are on lawsuits, and I don't particularly care as I have no problem whatsoever even if that IS what they want to do. It is the next logical step in this entire process and I see no issue whatever with it.

I will totally admit my own hypocrisy that even if I eventually sided with Camp Mystic, if it was my kid that died, I would sue the pants off of everyone and anyone I possibly could, alongside other parents. There is no amount of money that can bring a child back, but we can sure as hell make the damages so extreme that no one ever forgets it. What they do with that money, is not my business or my concern and it will carry no judgment at all.

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Fair enough. That is not our motive. We just want the Eastlands out of camping. And a safe Camp Mystic.

Love you man, and I think you're one of my absolute favorite posters on this board.

Your issue with someone claiming the victims' families are chasing dollars is warranted.

Quote:

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And we have people worrying about the effect of the sale of Mystic will be on them? And their property?

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However, the above is valid in the context of the thread topic, which is the legal ramifications of the lawsuit and subsequent court actions/remedies. You did state you started this thread to be about the court case, and not to be an extension of the primary thread which rightfully is about the victims, their memory, grief, etc.

I find myself mostly on your side in this issue regarding the fault of the Eastlands. And I remember I was one of the first to raise alarms last july in the aftermath and was called out by many about how the Eastlands would never put those girls in danger. But for me, the facts just didn't sit right at the time. That camp should never have been built there. Ever. All actions after that were mundane and trivial. I though then, and still do, that it was a ticking bomb from the moment it was built.

But I also get the arguments of the other side, and the need to discuss this without using the emotional arguments to quell discussion. For me it's a lot like the Sandy Hook shooting. The parents in that case used their emotional arguments to push for and enact draconian gun laws. Some extremely far reaching and anyone that disagreed was beaten with accusations of not caring for the kids killed, or at worst being just as guilty for their deaths. Emotion can be very dangerous when framing any kind of regulatory and/or legal remedies and especially engineered solutions.

Teslag said:

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Love you man, and I think you're one of my absolute favorite posters on this board.

Your issue with someone claiming the victims' families are chasing dollars is warranted.

Quote:

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And we have people worrying about the effect of the sale of Mystic will be on them? And their property?

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However, the above is valid in the context of the thread topic, which is the legal ramifications of the lawsuit and subsequent court actions/remedies. You did state you started this thread to be about the court case, and not to be an extension of the primary thread which rightfully is about the victims, their memory, grief, etc.

I find myself mostly on your side in this issue regarding the fault of the Eastlands. And I remember I was one of the first to raise alarms last july in the aftermath and was called out by many about how the Eastlands would never put those girls in danger. But for me, the facts just didn't sit right at the time. That camp should never have been built there. Ever. All actions after that were mundane and trivial. I though then, and still do, that it was a ticking bomb from the moment it was built.

But I also get the arguments of the other side, and the need to discuss this without using the emotional arguments to quell discussion. For me it's a lot like the Sandy Hook shooting. The parents in that case used their emotional arguments to push for and enact draconian gun laws. Some extremely far reaching and anyone that disagreed was beaten with accusations of not caring for the kids killed, or at worst being just as guilty for their deaths. Emotion can be very dangerous when framing any kind of regulatory and/or legal remedies and especially engineered solutions.

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Fair enough. I will try to be better. And never been called a sociopath before. Learn something every day. And who knew a sociopath could practice medicine for over 40 years and teach at the med school and get away with it?

dermdoc said:

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chase128 said:

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Doc, is your main concern with the Eastlands that they didn't have proper protocols in place to keep the campers safe?

I see people on this thread getting caught up on the camp being built in a flood plain.

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And we have posters on here who appear to be worried about what happens to the land than 27 deaths. I don't get it.

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Nothing can change the fact that those 27 girls are gone but this lawsuit will likely decide the outcome of the land and camp that has benefited thousands of girls over its time. That is why the disposition of the land is being discussed.

I don't know all the particulars of the situation and had never heard of Mystic until last summer, so maybe complete financial ruin for the Eastland family and subsequent sale of the land to a developer is the best outcome. Or perhaps dropping the lawsuit is the best outcome. I'm guessing it is somewhere in the middle; probably a situation where the Eastlands lose ownership but the land remains a camp that can continue to benefit youth. The only problem is that I, and many other posters it seems, doubt that a middle ground is possible as a result of the lawsuit and that seems a shame. A shame that something can still be done about rather than the absolute tragedy of the loss of those 27.

No one on this board would trade even 1 of those 27 for Camp Mystic, but that's not the situation we are in.

And who knew a sociopath could practice medicine for over 40 years and teach at the med school and get away with it?

Scary!

I get you Bud. I'm giving you some heavy leeway, we all should. But like I told you, everyone is going to have opinions and you have to expect it.

Your still a good egg!

John Cocktolstoy said:

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And who knew a sociopath could practice medicine for over 40 years and teach at the med school and get away with it?

Scary!

I get you Bud. I'm giving you some heavy leeway, we all should. But like I told you, everyone is going to have opinions and you have to expect it.

Your still a good egg!

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A sociopathic good egg!

With how the ownership is set up - camp vs land, I'm not sure that the land will be touchable/sold. Lots of family drama in the past (legal and otherwise) leading to it being pretty divided up

https://www.texasmonthly.com/being-texan/the-not-so-happy-campers/

The end result of the lawsuits is there will be no more camps along the Guadalupe River. Might not happen tomorrow or in 5 years but camping in that area is not going to be available to our grandkids. I know others disagree but I find that unfortunate.

The state seems happy to turn the spotlight on Camp Mystic…while the citizens of Kerr County call them out.

https://www.kxan.com/news/texas-politics/hill-country-to-lawmakers-focus-on-kerr-countys-119-not-just-camp-mystic/amp/

DannyDuberstein said:

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With how the ownership is set up - camp vs land, I'm not sure that the land will be touchable/sold. Lots of family drama in the past (legal and otherwise) leading to it being pretty divided up

https://www.texasmonthly.com/being-texan/the-not-so-happy-campers/

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Yes. In most cases, that is true, but there are no guarantees. This is where things get REALLY interesting.

The protection will hinge on how this business was structured and how well it was maintained. Given how the rest of the business is run, I'm not sure this is as protected as they hope.

The lawsuits will absolutely attempt to get those assets, it is a huge aspect of the lawsuits. It won't be easy, but it is absolutely possible.

Alta said:

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The end result of the lawsuits is there will be no more camps along the Guadalupe River. Might not happen tomorrow or in 5 years but camping in that area is not going to be available to our grandkids. I know others disagree but I find that unfortunate.

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As you know I disagree. Your kids are alive. It is easy to say you will take that risk until it happens to you. And I sincerely hope you never have to wake up to an empty bed. It could happen to you as easily as it happened to me. If you are okay with that, so be it.

And just imagine your 8 y/o daughter is going to Mystic. From what you have learned would you be comfortable with the Eastlands taking care of her? Would you hesitate to let them take care of her?

Alta said:

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The end result of the lawsuits is there will be no more camps along the Guadalupe River. Might not happen tomorrow or in 5 years but camping in that area is not going to be available to our grandkids. I know others disagree but I find that unfortunate.

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Yeah, but so far, there is no issue with having cabins in the flood plain moving forward.

You just can't have people sleeping in them overnight. You will need redundant internet. You will need weather radios (this is not ideal, by the way). You will need evacuation plans, and other stuff that is pretty reasonable.

I would argue that a lot of camps already do this stuff and it's all reasonable.

But seriously, these parents are dumping 7,000 bucks + for these camps. Build new cabins, get top grade tech, market it as safety features, charge the parents more for tuition, cover costs, maintain profit margins...easy peasy.

One thing that bugs me with all of this is that I have watched a lot of testimony, and no where have I seen a single text or email from a single damn parent to camp mystic regarding the impending weather that night. Where in the hell is all of that? Did Mom and Dad Steward send some notes to them? How about any other parents? Surely they were checking on the safeyt of their own kids, yes? There should be like 600 emails or texts or phone calls. Where are those? Hmmmm....This would be good to see and would further bolster the argument that Mystic was warned.

BrazosDog02 said:

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Alta said:

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The end result of the lawsuits is there will be no more camps along the Guadalupe River. Might not happen tomorrow or in 5 years but camping in that area is not going to be available to our grandkids. I know others disagree but I find that unfortunate.

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Yeah, but so far, there is no issue with having cabins in the flood plain moving forward.

You just can't have people sleeping in them overnight. You will need redundant internet. You will need weather radios (this is not ideal, by the way). You will need evacuation plans, and other stuff that is pretty reasonable.

I would argue that a lot of camps already do this stuff and it's all reasonable.

But seriously, these parents are dumping 7,000 bucks + for these camps. Build new cabins, get top grade tech, market it as safety features, charge the parents more for tuition, cover costs, maintain profit margins...easy peasy.

One thing that bugs me with all of this is that I have watched a lot of testimony, and no where have I seen a single text or email from a single damn parent to camp mystic regarding the impending weather that night. Where in the hell is all of that? Did Mom and Dad Steward send some notes to them? How about any other parents? Surely they were checking on the safeyt of their own kids, yes? There should be like 600 emails or texts or phone calls. Where are those? Hmmmm....This would be good to see and would further bolster the argument that Mystic was warned.

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You are correct. Mystic did not allow cell phones.

Alta said:

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The end result of the lawsuits is there will be no more camps along the Guadalupe River. Might not happen tomorrow or in 5 years but camping in that area is not going to be available to our grandkids. I know others disagree but I find that unfortunate.

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So what if it was your kid instead of ours? And it could just as easily have been. The lack of sensitivity is fairly astounding. No camping along the Guadalupe vs your kid's life. Wow.

Anyone that has actually ever been to Mystic knows cell service is basically non existent. And I'm fairly certain most if not all camps forbid campers from having cell phones.

So from what you know if you had lost a grand daughter, daughter, etc. in the flood are you convinced Mystic did all they could? Serious question.

BrazosDog02 said:

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Alta said:

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The end result of the lawsuits is there will be no more camps along the Guadalupe River. Might not happen tomorrow or in 5 years but camping in that area is not going to be available to our grandkids. I know others disagree but I find that unfortunate.

---

Yeah, but so far, there is no issue with having cabins in the flood plain moving forward.

You just can't have people sleeping in them overnight. You will need redundant internet. You will need weather radios (this is not ideal, by the way). You will need evacuation plans, and other stuff that is pretty reasonable.

I would argue that a lot of camps already do this stuff and it's all reasonable.

But seriously, these parents are dumping 7,000 bucks + for these camps. Build new cabins, get top grade tech, market it as safety features, charge the parents more for tuition, cover costs, maintain profit margins...easy peasy.

One thing that bugs me with all of this is that I have watched a lot of testimony, and no where have I seen a single text or email from a single damn parent to camp mystic regarding the impending weather that night. Where in the hell is all of that? Did Mom and Dad Steward send some notes to them? How about any other parents? Surely they were checking on the safeyt of their own kids, yes? There should be like 600 emails or texts or phone calls. Where are those? Hmmmm....This would be good to see and would further bolster the argument that Mystic was warned.

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those messages didn't exist because no one knew the severity of this. Flooding happens all the time in the Hill Country. This was not that…(I recognize you understand this)

Quick response as I've tried to avoid posting as I have nothing new to add to thread and already shared my views/personal experiences here.

My point is - all of that might not be enough. Camp is risky, especially in places like the Guadalupe. That has been shown not by just the deaths at Mystic but by the other 100 people who died that night. There comes a point when good people are either not able to afford to run the camps or lose the desire to do so. That is all I meant by my comment.

On your final paragraph - I sent my daughter to Mystic. I was very familiar with the risks of flooding as I lost a close family member in a flood (trying to evacuate) as a kid. Still haunts me. I did a lot of research and was comfortable with the location of the cabins. I don't fault (or would expect) parents for not emailing Mystic that night. I certainly never did that in the middle of the night when my daughter was there. If I thought evacuating in the middle of the night was a possibility I wouldn't haven't sent my daughter there for obvious reasons.

dermdoc said:

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Alta said:

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The end result of the lawsuits is there will be no more camps along the Guadalupe River. Might not happen tomorrow or in 5 years but camping in that area is not going to be available to our grandkids. I know others disagree but I find that unfortunate.

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So what if it was your kid instead of ours? And it could just as easily have been. The lack of sensitivity is fairly astounding. No camping along the Guadalupe vs your kid's life. Wow.

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You've gone off the rails.

Step away from the computer and spend time with your family.

Peter Piper said:

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dermdoc said:

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Alta said:

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The end result of the lawsuits is there will be no more camps along the Guadalupe River. Might not happen tomorrow or in 5 years but camping in that area is not going to be available to our grandkids. I know others disagree but I find that unfortunate.

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So what if it was your kid instead of ours? And it could just as easily have been. The lack of sensitivity is fairly astounding. No camping along the Guadalupe vs your kid's life. Wow.

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You've gone off the rails.

Step away from the computer and spend time with your family.

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I am. My family is all here. They agree with me. It is a hard question that nobody on here will answer. It is so easy to talk about all this stuff until it affects you.
Serious question, from the facts you know if your daughter had been killed in the flood do you think Mystic did all they could to protect her.
And the reason you think I am off the rails is that is the honest bald faced truth,

Do you have a daughter?

Peter Piper said:

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dermdoc said:

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Alta said:

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The end result of the lawsuits is there will be no more camps along the Guadalupe River. Might not happen tomorrow or in 5 years but camping in that area is not going to be available to our grandkids. I know others disagree but I find that unfortunate.

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So what if it was your kid instead of ours? And it could just as easily have been. The lack of sensitivity is fairly astounding. No camping along the Guadalupe vs your kid's life. Wow.

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You've gone off the rails.

Step away from the computer and spend time with your family.

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I'll say the same to you

Alta said:

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On your final paragraph - I sent my daughter to Mystic. I was very familiar with the risks of flooding as I lost a close family member in a flood (trying to evacuate) as a kid. Still haunts me. I did a lot of research and was comfortable with the location of the cabins. I don't fault (or would expect) parents for not emailing Mystic that night. I certainly never did that in the middle of the night when my daughter was there. If I thought evacuating in the middle of the night was a possibility I wouldn't haven't sent my daughter there for obvious reasons.

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Yes, I get that. Maybe you wouldn't. Maybe I wouldn't. But does it make sense to you that in 600+ campers, possibly 1200+ parents with cells, there wasn't a single email or text or call? No one watches weather? No one worries? They all just disconnect from their kids for the duration? There isn't a single helicopter parent? I'm not arguing with you, or calling you out, I'm just saying it's weird. It just seems like a given and like something valuable to a prosecutor.

Everyone needs to go to bed tonight. On both sides of this thread. Please stop. Nothing productive happens after 10:00 PM....certainly on TexAgs.....unless you're plotting Red White & Blue Out.

I think my issue are the actions to protect equipment (canoes etc.), prior to child safety. If the Eastlands believed water would rise high enough to float those, wouldn't the first order of business be to move the campers to higher ground first?

Canoes are easily replaceable.

I get the weather was crappy. Lightning. But somebody is outside moving equipment.

austinag1997 said:

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I think my issue are the actions to protect equipment (canoes etc.), prior to child safety. If the Eastlands believed water would rise high enough to float those, wouldn't the first order of business be to move the campers to higher ground first?

Canoes are easily replaceable.

I get the weather was crappy. Lightning. But somebody is outside moving equipment.

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Im guessing the canoes were kept along the river where a routine rainfall and river rise could wash them away. Not where a never seen before by anyone alive river rise would wash them away.
I don't think that is a great argument on caring for equipment more than kids.

oldarmy76 said:

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austinag1997 said:

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I think my issue are the actions to protect equipment (canoes etc.), prior to child safety. If the Eastlands believed water would rise high enough to float those, wouldn't the first order of business be to move the campers to higher ground first?

Canoes are easily replaceable.

I get the weather was crappy. Lightning. But somebody is outside moving equipment.

---

Im guessing the canoes were kept along the river where a routine rainfall and river rise could wash them away. Not where a never seen before by anyone alive river rise would wash them away.
I don't think that is a great argument on caring for equipment more than kids.

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correct…

River elevation: 1820 ft
Canoes: just off the river, say 1825 ft
Highest height of the water that day: 1858 ft

And the destruction actually came from a tiny creek that was almost opposite in direction from the river.

Note, those elevations are not exact and taken from oNX and google earth based off of where I know there was destruction and limited by the details/accuracy of those maps.

oldarmy76 said:

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austinag1997 said:

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I think my issue are the actions to protect equipment (canoes etc.), prior to child safety. If the Eastlands believed water would rise high enough to float those, wouldn't the first order of business be to move the campers to higher ground first?

Canoes are easily replaceable.

I get the weather was crappy. Lightning. But somebody is outside moving equipment.

---

Im guessing the canoes were kept along the river where a routine rainfall and river rise could wash them away. Not where a never seen before by anyone alive river rise would wash them away.
I don't think that is a great argument on caring for equipment more than kids.

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Yep, they were doing what they had done for years on that river. I have thought of many things I am used to doing when weather comes and have been surprised once on Limestone. Mother Nature can throw you a curveball that cannot be hit.