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In my opinion this is going to make piercing the corporate veil of the land holding company very difficult if not impossible. It's real hard to argue that the legal entities are alter egos if limited partners of the holding company have sued the owners of the operating company in the past.

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Yeah, and this is really where I stop as I am wandering way out of my lane.

A few conversations I have had with litigator type folks made me realize that LLC or LP membership does not shield you from liability in the event that your actions result in harm or death to others. The Eastlands saying they were just agents of the Camp Mystic LLC does not protect them and they still have uncapped liability depending on the outcome.

So these lawsuits being against both Camp Mystic as a legal entity and the Eastlands as individuals makes for all sorts of potential outcomes.

Say there is a huge $100 Million verdict against the various Eastland family members and the assets they have to pay are interests in LLC of LPs, does that kill the company from a different angle?

I am holiday inn express para-lawyering here.

Question for the lawyers:

If the veil is impenetrable, is it possible for permanent injunctive relief against the family and affiliates from direct or indirect involvement with a camp? That would remove the income production component from the land.

I think any kind of permanent relief like that would have to come from the state.

dermdoc said:

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Drundel said:

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Cliff notes question, what's the goal of the lawsuit?

Asking as a cynic, do the families want money, want the land, want to shut them down and/or bankrupts them, etc?

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My nephew and his wife who lost a daughter just want the Eastlands gone. And are not adverse to criminal charges especially against the nurse/med supervisor who admitted she abandoned the campers and evacuated her own family. They feel the Eastlands were totally inept, negligent,(and I believe the evidence is proof of that) and the only way to keep this from happening again is getting them out of the camping business. They don't need the money.

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Gotcha. Yea, sounds like the nurse/med supervisor might be charged, but then again, the Uvalde CISD police officer was found not guilty, so who knows how a jury would vote.

I wonder if the Eastlands ineptitude was more a result of compliancy and not evolving with the times. Ie, its always worked this way, no need to make changes, etc.

This is the problem with nepotism. People end up in positions that they have no business being in solely on the basis of which family they were born into.

jh0400 said:

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Question for the lawyers:

If the veil is impenetrable, is it possible for permanent injunctive relief against the family and affiliates from direct or indirect involvement with a camp? That would remove the income production component from the land.

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Not in the civil context.

In the criminal context, assuming the Eastlands are charged and are (i) convicted or (ii) enter a plea deal, I'm sure one of the conditions of their punishment/probation would be that they are never allowed to operate a camp again.

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In the criminal context, assuming the Eastlands are charged and are (i) convicted or (ii) enter a plea deal, I'm sure one of the conditions of their punishment/probation would be that they are never allowed to operate a camp again.

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I doubt criminal charges will be brought, the "beyond a reasonable doubt" hurdle is pretty high, but assuming that did happen, wouldn't the punish just revert to the punishment attached to whatever crime was committed and it's sentencing guidelines. Most sentences don't restrict your future employment once your time is served unless your on the sex offender list.

Now on the civil side, you only have to get to 51% of the evidence....don't think that looks good for the camp.

During my CPA years, I got to work on a few situations where piercing the corporate veil was possibly going to be an issue. I worked with different attorneys, all on the business owners' side, some of them my tax clients, some not. Like most of my clients who formed an entity or entities for legal protection, shielding assets, etc. almost none of them did what they had been instructed when doing the entity formation. Things like keeping minutes, not paying for personal things out of the corporation or LLC, and other things.

In all of the situations I was involved in, either they did not try to pierce the corporate veil or were not successful. In all but one case, it involved one plaintiff and one defendant, and they all settled for policy limits. I guess the plaintiffs were satisfied getting more money than they had ever seen up until then. Where this case differs is there are multiple people going after the camp/camp owners. Wonder how much insurance they had? Closest thing to that situation that I was involved in involved the employee of a client, in a client owned company pickup, being at fault in a vehicle wreck that killed three people, family members, three generations. He had been in other accidents before and I think (relying on my memory which might not be wise) he had been convicted of DWI once or twice before. They also settled for policy limits and the policy limit amount was not all that high. Still can't believe it, but the attorney on my client's side said the opposing lawyer was young and probably saw the $1,000,000 or so settlement and getting his hands on a third of it (or so), and suggested they take it.

The Stacy Eastland part of this is interesting and will be something to follow.

Fdsa said:

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Drundel said:

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dermdoc said:

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Drundel said:

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Cliff notes question, what's the goal of the lawsuit?

Asking as a cynic, do the families want money, want the land, want to shut them down and/or bankrupts them, etc?

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My nephew and his wife who lost a daughter just want the Eastlands gone. And are not adverse to criminal charges especially against the nurse/med supervisor who admitted she abandoned the campers and evacuated her own family. They feel the Eastlands were totally inept, negligent,(and I believe the evidence is proof of that) and the only way to keep this from happening again is getting them out of the camping business. They don't need the money.

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Gotcha. Yea, sounds like the nurse/med supervisor might be charged, but then again, the Uvalde CISD police officer was found not guilty, so who knows how a jury would vote.

I wonder if the Eastlands ineptitude was more a result of compliancy and not evolving with the times. Ie, its always worked this way, no need to make changes, etc.

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Defense will prove Mary Liz would have been unable to reach Guadalupe Camp well before the decision for evacuation was reached.

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Wouldn't that have to be up to the DA and not have anything to do with the civil trial?

I was referring to criminal charges.

Drundel said:

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dermdoc said:

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Drundel said:

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Cliff notes question, what's the goal of the lawsuit?

Asking as a cynic, do the families want money, want the land, want to shut them down and/or bankrupts them, etc?

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My nephew and his wife who lost a daughter just want the Eastlands gone. And are not adverse to criminal charges especially against the nurse/med supervisor who admitted she abandoned the campers and evacuated her own family. They feel the Eastlands were totally inept, negligent,(and I believe the evidence is proof of that) and the only way to keep this from happening again is getting them out of the camping business. They don't need the money.

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Gotcha. Yea, sounds like the nurse/med supervisor might be charged, but then again, the Uvalde CISD police officer was found not guilty, so who knows how a jury would vote.

I wonder if the Eastlands ineptitude was more a result of compliancy and not evolving with the times. Ie, its always worked this way, no need to make changes, etc.

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Yes. This is exactly what it is. The Eastlands are not bad people, they aren't intentionally malicious, and I don't think they are inept in any way. You simply don't run a business like this for a century if you aren't doing something right. The problems are aplenty starting with a patriarch makes all the decisions and he used previous historical personal knowledge to evaluate the situation. That feeling of "it's going to be fine" trickles to all parties in a team. If I am flustered and frantic, my team is flustered and panicked. If I am cool, they are cool. The simple fact here is that the resulting action was simply too late to offset the severity of the flood and it killed people. The Eastland's text to his wife as the water was rising was basically "Welp, looks like a lot of rain, I won't be sleeping in bed at home with you. LOL." It was a 'wait and see' attitude that got people killed.

So, no matter what we think of them, they are still responsible for what happened and they are going to pay in some way or another.

One thing you will noticed in many historical news articles relating to floods is that many of them are noted as 'historical' and "the worst flood we've ever seen". As such, it would stand to reason that any given flood in the future would also be 'the worst we've ever seen" and overabundance of safety procedure would be smart. Unfortunately, humans don't work that way. We always think the last one was the worst so this will be fine. That's what happened here and it cannot happen like that. Don't forget about Hurricane Harvey where we had model data 14 days out that clued literally the entire gulf coast into the possibility of flooding. 36 hours out it was nearly certain but so extreme no one could fathom it. What happened? People drowned in their attics anyway.

I honestly believe that weather forecasting, as AI is incorporated into it will begin to provide higher degrees of certainty and better guidance with more warning. There will soon be a time where the excuse of "We didn't know it would be that bad" will simply not be on the table. It's already kinda not on the table.

I agree with everything you said. I've done a lot of studying on organizational culture over the years, and I always look to that when safety accidents occur, etc. So, why was this camp operating like this? Why weren't the employees more empowered to act? In talking to others in the camp industry, the 'head guy holding all the answers' is actually pretty common. Thinking it through a bit, I believe this is due to the staff's extremely transient nature. It's one step up from an organization run entirely by volunteers. Delegating in these scenarios feels risky, and I believe some of these directors just grow accustomed to making every decision, even when they have some employees who are long-term. It's human nature to want full control.

Marvin_Zindler said:

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BrazosDog02 said:

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Drundel said:

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dermdoc said:

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Drundel said:

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Cliff notes question, what's the goal of the lawsuit?

Asking as a cynic, do the families want money, want the land, want to shut them down and/or bankrupts them, etc?

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My nephew and his wife who lost a daughter just want the Eastlands gone. And are not adverse to criminal charges especially against the nurse/med supervisor who admitted she abandoned the campers and evacuated her own family. They feel the Eastlands were totally inept, negligent,(and I believe the evidence is proof of that) and the only way to keep this from happening again is getting them out of the camping business. They don't need the money.

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Gotcha. Yea, sounds like the nurse/med supervisor might be charged, but then again, the Uvalde CISD police officer was found not guilty, so who knows how a jury would vote.

I wonder if the Eastlands ineptitude was more a result of compliancy and not evolving with the times. Ie, its always worked this way, no need to make changes, etc.

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Yes. This is exactly what it is. The Eastlands are not bad people, they aren't intentionally malicious, and I don't think they are inept in any way. You simply don't run a business like this for a century if you aren't doing something right. The problems are aplenty starting with a patriarch makes all the decisions and he used previous historical personal knowledge to evaluate the situation. That feeling of "it's going to be fine" trickles to all parties in a team. If I am flustered and frantic, my team is flustered and panicked. If I am cool, they are cool. The simple fact here is that the resulting action was simply too late to offset the severity of the flood and it killed people. The Eastland's text to his wife as the water was rising was basically "Welp, looks like a lot of rain, I won't be sleeping in bed at home with you. LOL." It was a 'wait and see' attitude that got people killed.

So, no matter what we think of them, they are still responsible for what happened and they are going to pay in some way or another.

One thing you will noticed in many historical news articles relating to floods is that many of them are noted as 'historical' and "the worst flood we've ever seen". As such, it would stand to reason that any given flood in the future would also be 'the worst we've ever seen" and overabundance of safety procedure would be smart. Unfortunately, humans don't work that way. We always think the last one was the worst so this will be fine. That's what happened here and it cannot happen like that. Don't forget about Hurricane Harvey where we had model data 14 days out that clued literally the entire gulf coast into the possibility of flooding. 36 hours out it was nearly certain but so extreme no one could fathom it. What happened? People drowned in their attics anyway.

I honestly believe that weather forecasting, as AI is incorporated into it will begin to provide higher degrees of certainty and better guidance with more warning. There will soon be a time where the excuse of "We didn't know it would be that bad" will simply not be on the table. It's already kinda not on the table.

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I was all for giving them the benefit of the doubt early on last year, but their actions since the fall and all of the findings that have come out since give me pause.

Had they just taken a summer off and done some reflection and lament. Had they not made an immediate rush to reopen camp despite what the unified families of the 27 dead asked. Had Mary Liz followed the law and reported deaths that, even after learning her obligation in court 2 weeks ago, she still has not reported. Had they just not gone on like business as usual, even though it is clear that they, themselves, are in deep grief

While I do not think they are malicious, I do think they have handled everything post-July 4th about as terribly as one could possibly handle it.

I think Malorie Lytal, a 10-year camper herself, said it best yesterday:

"For the Eastland family, the camp directors and owners who I have known almost my entire life, I am heartbroken that you have not only destroyed our lives, but that you destroyed your own. As well as taken away every beautiful memory and magic of Mystic that many have held so dear in their hearts."

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Well put. Tragedies reveal character or lack thereof. When people tell you who they are, believe them.

If you are concerned about risk, there are 2 methods to address it. You can address asset protection and the actual underlying risk; most businesses that successfully sustain themselves do both. Mystic just addressed asset protection. It's just a bit nauseating to hear how good of people they are when they made the choice spend effort and resources on one but not the other.

pwags11 said:

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This is my first post on this site but I lurk nearly everyday. I am from this river valley and am tired of the constant attacks. This community is hurting and will hurt for a long time. There are so many folks affected by this flood. I grew up going to camp nearby, was on staff at another on the Frio, did church picnics at mystic, and am glad new measures are being put in place across the state for camp safety. Kids need camp.

There is not a week that has passed I haven't thought about these kids, the Eastlands and the countless other families down river.

I wish things happened different that night. But let's please stop the bashing about money and intent. Please continue to pray for healing and peace.

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Fair enough. Do you believe Mystic and the Eastlands were guilty of gross negligence in the deaths if 27 people?

Ignore it and move on is the mindset that got us here.

DannyDuberstein said:

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Ignore it and move on is the mindset that got us here.

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Sorry this attitude ticks me off. Not directed at you Danny. The ignore and move on attitude.

pwags11 said:

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This is my first post on this site but I lurk nearly everyday. I am from this river valley and am tired of the constant attacks. This community is hurting and will hurt for a long time. There are so many folks affected by this flood. I grew up going to camp nearby, was on staff at another on the Frio, did church picnics at mystic, and am glad new measures are being put in place across the state for camp safety. Kids need camp.

There is not a week that has passed I haven't thought about these kids, the Eastlands and the countless other families down river.

I wish things happened different that night. But let's please stop the bashing about money and intent. Please continue to pray for healing and peace.

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There have been easily a half dozen threads elsewhere here about expressing emotions for the deceased and finding ways to help the people impacted by the floods. This one is about the legal matters, and in the legal realm, emotions take a back seat to truth and facts. The facts and the truth are not friendly to the Eastlands when it comes to the effort they put into their emergency plans, particularly when compared to the time and effort they put into their financial structure.

I do think it is important to separate accusations about moral intent from those involving lack of proper attention or care. I have argued in this thread against impugning their direct motives or level of care for the kids from the Eastlands. I don't think anything the Eastlands did (or didn't) was deliberately or maliciously neglectful towards the kids. They obviously loved them and put a lot of care into interactions with them. But it simply can't be argued that there are glaring gaps in their planning for contingencies that applied to their emergency plans for the camp that did not exist in their planning for potentially getting sued.

I would suggest that a very disproportionate value of these camps is from the interactions with the great kids they attended them with and the great kids that were counselors in these cabins. Sure, the Eastlands and the camp provided a structure for that to happen, but I oftentimes think the credit for the growth that happened in these camps is misplaced to some degree.

pwags11 said:

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This is my first post on this site but I lurk nearly everyday. I am from this river valley and am tired of the constant attacks. This community is hurting and will hurt for a long time. There are so many folks affected by this flood. I grew up going to camp nearby, was on staff at another on the Frio, did church picnics at mystic, and am glad new measures are being put in place across the state for camp safety. Kids need camp.

There is not a week that has passed I haven't thought about these kids, the Eastlands and the countless other families down river.

I wish things happened different that night. But let's please stop the bashing about money and intent. Please continue to pray for healing and peace.

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The money "piece" is what it is. Do I (or probably most people here) decry the fact that the Eastlands made their living by providing a service that willing buyers paid for year after year....absolutely not. But to ignore the fact that it was a lucrative business is to ignore facts.

Should some of that money been put back into a safety measures? Well, given the events of July 4th, that is certainly a valid question to ask.

I don't think anyone is "attacking" anyone. In fact, I think most Texans that are not either (i) directly connected to the Eastlands or (ii) Mystic-blinders-on-loyalists are simply looking at the totality of the situation and asking (i) how and why did this happen and (ii) why are y'all trying to reopen in the midst of all of this pain and suffering, both within the families of the girls that died and also within the Eastland family as well.

dermdoc said:

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pwags11 said:

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This is my first post on this site but I lurk nearly everyday. I am from this river valley and am tired of the constant attacks. This community is hurting and will hurt for a long time. There are so many folks affected by this flood. I grew up going to camp nearby, was on staff at another on the Frio, did church picnics at mystic, and am glad new measures are being put in place across the state for camp safety. Kids need camp.

There is not a week that has passed I haven't thought about these kids, the Eastlands and the countless other families down river.

I wish things happened different that night. But let's please stop the bashing about money and intent. Please continue to pray for healing and peace.

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Fair enough. Do you believe Mystic and the Eastlands were guilty of gross negligence in the deaths if 27 people?

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I would bet ordinary negligence, not gross if I had to predict the outcome.

Mr. Frodo said:

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I must have missed the destroying of evidence. Can someone summarize or point me in the right direction?

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volunteers came and did cleanup and restoration of a few buildings. It's still obvious where flood damage occurred and the levels that the water rose in the camp.