everyone knows the possibility and I think everyone also knows when a catastrophic event happens WITH WARNINGS that you receive you take action. You don't ignore them. Especially when you're responsible for hundreds of KIDSjja79 said:
I don't really follow your analogy. I'm just thinking people that lived in Texas knew the possibility in that area. I'm not absolving anyone of liability. I don't know what type plan would have worked in this catastropy.
Legal ramifications against Camp Mystic
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Last: 3 days ago by dermdoc
The process of adjusting flood maps is to get an elevation certificate and present it to the authorities to adjust their map for the known flood level. Maybe they took it a step further and argued the level - but I would think they didn't,
The flood maps I see for that area on the FEMA site and I believe referenced by Richard Eastland make no sense. You have flood plains going up a cliff etc, way higher in some areas than the low highway across the river. There were areas that got destroyed that were not on the flood plain and then areas that were on the map that did not get water.
This aligns with what Gunny said earlier - read the land…I do think the new legislation requiring 1000 feet from a flood plain for any cabin is good.
This aligns with what Gunny said earlier - read the land…I do think the new legislation requiring 1000 feet from a flood plain for any cabin is good.
Yep. The map they did on our ranch in the 60's was the same. They said they had to amend it due to Canyon Lake being built. That did not make sense to my dad cause we were way upstream from the beginnings of Canyon Lake.
The Corp of Engineers also surveyed our land and drove markers of how high the water was going to be at our place when Canyon got to normal pool.
They said Rust Falls wood be covered up and that we were going to able and put a boat in at our place and drive all the way to the Canyon dam. Well it never changed the river by us one bit…..even when it flooded over the spill way.
As you said the flood plain map made no sense…..on our side of the river where the elevation was flatter and not as high they had the flood plain line much lower than the other side of the river where it was like a cliff.
Our grandparents knew better. They said it was wrong. They were proven correct in 1978.
The Corp of Engineers also surveyed our land and drove markers of how high the water was going to be at our place when Canyon got to normal pool.
They said Rust Falls wood be covered up and that we were going to able and put a boat in at our place and drive all the way to the Canyon dam. Well it never changed the river by us one bit…..even when it flooded over the spill way.
As you said the flood plain map made no sense…..on our side of the river where the elevation was flatter and not as high they had the flood plain line much lower than the other side of the river where it was like a cliff.
Our grandparents knew better. They said it was wrong. They were proven correct in 1978.
TAMU Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences
Boat racing is like a beautiful woman.......expensive, high maintenance, but well worth the fun!
Boat racing is like a beautiful woman.......expensive, high maintenance, but well worth the fun!
Yea I wasn't trying to say the Eastlands had done that. My comment has nothing to do with them at all. What I was talking about was what old timers around our river home said in the 1960's when they "updated" the 100 year flood plain around us.
TAMU Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences
Boat racing is like a beautiful woman.......expensive, high maintenance, but well worth the fun!
Boat racing is like a beautiful woman.......expensive, high maintenance, but well worth the fun!
I see. Disregard then. I misunderstood the post but I see what you mean from the one above.
In relation to the comment about grandparents….old people already made mistakes. Thats what makes them smart now. For whatever reason, there isn't a lot of substitute for first hand experience.
My folks told me for years not to touch the stove because it would burn and it would hurt a long time. But I did it anyway. I didn't understand until I did it.
But that's why we have forced rules and regulations….so we don't have to figure it out.
In relation to the comment about grandparents….old people already made mistakes. Thats what makes them smart now. For whatever reason, there isn't a lot of substitute for first hand experience.
My folks told me for years not to touch the stove because it would burn and it would hurt a long time. But I did it anyway. I didn't understand until I did it.
But that's why we have forced rules and regulations….so we don't have to figure it out.
Gunny456 said:
Yep. The map they did on our ranch in the 60's was the same. They said they had to amend it due to Canyon Lake being built. That did not make sense to my dad cause we were way upstream from the beginnings of Canyon Lake.
The Corp of Engineers also surveyed our land and drove markers of how high the water was going to be at our place when Canyon got to normal pool.
They said Rust Falls wood be covered up and that we were going to able and put a boat in at our place and drive all the way to the Canyon dam. Well it never changed the river by us one bit…..even when it flooded over the spill way.
As you said the flood plain map made no sense…..on our side of the river where the elevation was flatter and not as high they had the flood plain line much lower than the other side of the river where it was like a cliff.
Our grandparents knew better. They said it was wrong. They were proven correct in 1978.
That sounds more like a basemap vs topo mismatch moreso than a modelling issue. The flood modelling is very much a GIGO process. If you don't have the right input or detailed enough maps, you won't get good output. The models also are only as good as the resolution they are mapped at and won't do well with localized flow barriers or merges if they are only fed a few topographic cross sections of the channel.
Our comfort home is 1 foot into the 100 yr flood plain. I knew we were close so got an elevation certificate done just to make sure….thats how I know it's 1'. 1978 would have had water just about right there.
I guess that they also don't do well with changes that impact the waterways. When the valley ranch development got built north of Houston in Porter around the new loop - we had a building that ended up getting mg flooded twice. Fortunately had flood coverage. They took a 1000 acre "retention swamp" and made it into a development. Clearly didn't make them do enough retention. I don't think.
I guess that they also don't do well with changes that impact the waterways. When the valley ranch development got built north of Houston in Porter around the new loop - we had a building that ended up getting mg flooded twice. Fortunately had flood coverage. They took a 1000 acre "retention swamp" and made it into a development. Clearly didn't make them do enough retention. I don't think.
Fdsa said:
Let's change the scenario:
You're at one of those cabins. It's flooding. The water is 20' in elevation below the cabin. It's the worst lightning storm you have ever seen. Get on the loudspeaker anyways -- "everyone evacuate to higher ground"...everyone does that and lightning strikes a tree a group of girls is under. Tragic...the river never got any closer to those cabins. The guidance said to stay in place. A plaintiff's attorney is now asking you "why didn't you follow the plan and leave everyone in place? The water had never in history reached that cabin!! What were you thinking? FEMA says to stay in place, and your Texas-approved plan said the same." This is essentially the testimony of Glenn, the hero we all talked about on this board.
These legal proceedings have gotten very personal, and the attacks on the Eastlands have gone too far. They are not evil people. Yes, they made mistakes and will forever pay as they go to sleep each night for the rest of their lives.
I do not intend for any of the above to reflect a lack of sorrow for anyone who lost a loved one. This was a tragic event, and I cannot fathom their pain.
My empathy for the Eastlands evaporated when it was announced they would reopen the camp THIS year!!
BQ92 said:Fdsa said:
Let's change the scenario:
You're at one of those cabins. It's flooding. The water is 20' in elevation below the cabin. It's the worst lightning storm you have ever seen. Get on the loudspeaker anyways -- "everyone evacuate to higher ground"...everyone does that and lightning strikes a tree a group of girls is under. Tragic...the river never got any closer to those cabins. The guidance said to stay in place. A plaintiff's attorney is now asking you "why didn't you follow the plan and leave everyone in place? The water had never in history reached that cabin!! What were you thinking? FEMA says to stay in place, and your Texas-approved plan said the same." This is essentially the testimony of Glenn, the hero we all talked about on this board.
These legal proceedings have gotten very personal, and the attacks on the Eastlands have gone too far. They are not evil people. Yes, they made mistakes and will forever pay as they go to sleep each night for the rest of their lives.
I do not intend for any of the above to reflect a lack of sorrow for anyone who lost a loved one. This was a tragic event, and I cannot fathom their pain.
My empathy for the Eastlands evaporated when it was announced they would reopen the camp THIS year!!
Yeah, not sure how I feel about that one. It's a different camp completely. I doubt Guadalupe camp will see campers for years. I know they were getting a lot of pressure from families to open Cypress. We don't send our daughter to Mystic, but camp is a huge deal for her every year.
Gunny456 said:
Yep. The map they did on our ranch in the 60's was the same. They said they had to amend it due to Canyon Lake being built. That did not make sense to my dad cause we were way upstream from the beginnings of Canyon Lake.
The Corp of Engineers also surveyed our land and drove markers of how high the water was going to be at our place when Canyon got to normal pool.
They said Rust Falls wood be covered up and that we were going to able and put a boat in at our place and drive all the way to the Canyon dam. Well it never changed the river by us one bit…..even when it flooded over the spill way.
As you said the flood plain map made no sense…..on our side of the river where the elevation was flatter and not as high they had the flood plain line much lower than the other side of the river where it was like a cliff.
Our grandparents knew better. They said it was wrong. They were proven correct in 1978.
As someone said earlier flood maps from the 60's were definitely unreliable and often had very inaccurate contour data. With modern HECRAS modeling and LIDAR contours the output can be very precise.
It's also rather haphazard to pass off our ancestors as jedi knights of hydrology. Many of them died, often losing entire villages and towns to floods.
98Ag99Grad said:TxAG-010 said:
There are no winners in this situation, legal battle, or frankly this thread....
Couldn't agree more.
The personal injury plaintiffs' attorneys raking in 40% would disagree. But they are the only ones.
Yea that's fine now but not back in 1978.
And the majority of the ranching homesteads homes and barns along the Guadalupe have not been washed away in almost 200 years so they definitely had a good knowledge.
Towns and villages were not homesteads. They were often built right next to waterways for commerce…of course they were going to flood.
And the majority of the ranching homesteads homes and barns along the Guadalupe have not been washed away in almost 200 years so they definitely had a good knowledge.
Towns and villages were not homesteads. They were often built right next to waterways for commerce…of course they were going to flood.
TAMU Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences
Boat racing is like a beautiful woman.......expensive, high maintenance, but well worth the fun!
Boat racing is like a beautiful woman.......expensive, high maintenance, but well worth the fun!
Fdsa said:BQ92 said:Fdsa said:
Let's change the scenario:
You're at one of those cabins. It's flooding. The water is 20' in elevation below the cabin. It's the worst lightning storm you have ever seen. Get on the loudspeaker anyways -- "everyone evacuate to higher ground"...everyone does that and lightning strikes a tree a group of girls is under. Tragic...the river never got any closer to those cabins. The guidance said to stay in place. A plaintiff's attorney is now asking you "why didn't you follow the plan and leave everyone in place? The water had never in history reached that cabin!! What were you thinking? FEMA says to stay in place, and your Texas-approved plan said the same." This is essentially the testimony of Glenn, the hero we all talked about on this board.
These legal proceedings have gotten very personal, and the attacks on the Eastlands have gone too far. They are not evil people. Yes, they made mistakes and will forever pay as they go to sleep each night for the rest of their lives.
I do not intend for any of the above to reflect a lack of sorrow for anyone who lost a loved one. This was a tragic event, and I cannot fathom their pain.
My empathy for the Eastlands evaporated when it was announced they would reopen the camp THIS year!!
Yeah, not sure how I feel about that one. It's a different camp completely. I doubt Guadalupe camp will see campers for years. I know they were getting a lot of pressure from families to open Cypress. We don't send our daughter to Mystic, but camp is a huge deal for her every year.
My nieces are/were Mystic girls, and were actually supposed to be there the session the week or 2 after the 4th. Neither one wants to go to Mystic this year and not sure if they are going to any camp at all.
Gunny456 said:
Yea that's fine now but not back in 1978.
And the majority of the ranching homesteads homes and barns along the Guadalupe have not been washed away in almost 200 years so they definitely had a good knowledge.
Towns and villages were not homesteads. They were often built right next to waterways for commerce…of course they were going to flood.
Of course the ones still standing haven't been washed away. What do you suppose happened to the ones that were?
I'm not going to banter with you on this…cause we won't accomplish anything. I didn't say the ones still standing haven't washed away…that's obtuse. Read the post….i said the majority of those homesteaded homes and barns have not been washed away in 200 years they have been there. I was born and raised on the Guadalupe in the hill country. Many of those German homesteads along the Guadalupe were my kin. Others were neighbor ranchers of like settlers that traded and worked with our family for many years.
I don't know of one homestead that had been washed away from floods. They may not be there anymore due to selling of the ranches and land… but they weren't washed away by floods.
Where did your family homestead a ranch along the upper Guadalupe? Did you grow up there? If so, heck we might be kin.
I don't know of one homestead that had been washed away from floods. They may not be there anymore due to selling of the ranches and land… but they weren't washed away by floods.
Where did your family homestead a ranch along the upper Guadalupe? Did you grow up there? If so, heck we might be kin.
TAMU Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences
Boat racing is like a beautiful woman.......expensive, high maintenance, but well worth the fun!
Boat racing is like a beautiful woman.......expensive, high maintenance, but well worth the fun!
I completely agree. What was the time frame over which the situation went from safe to catastrophic? Following along the newscasts that morning the amount of time that passed seemed remarkably short but I don't really know.
Gunny, But those old timers usually knew how to build **** out of the danger zone, most of the time through trial and error, where as "not old timers" want scenery at a cost and that's acceptable to them…
Brazos/Tesla - Regarding the floodplain maps, everything is a calculation based on the amount of rain per hour into the system, the base floodplain elevation is supposed to based on ground truthed elevations so whether or not they have on the ground elevations is up to the individual(s) responsible for certifying the maps - generally the county does this work for FEMA. Hence why you might see the floodplain going straight up a cliff face etc. They just don't have the data which is why you're allowed to get slab elevation certs.
I can tell you that in Fort Bend County, the FEMA maps need to change after Harvey, even with that being a crazy 5,000+ year flood event; but they haven't changed on the FEMA designation maps. While the county is requiring developers to build and detain water to these new elevations; If you look at what the estimated flood plan "might change to" and then look at how many houses would be looped into the 100 yr floodplain, and think about how much money would have to be spent on mandatory insurance due to loans, it actually makes your eyes bug out.
Brazos/Tesla - Regarding the floodplain maps, everything is a calculation based on the amount of rain per hour into the system, the base floodplain elevation is supposed to based on ground truthed elevations so whether or not they have on the ground elevations is up to the individual(s) responsible for certifying the maps - generally the county does this work for FEMA. Hence why you might see the floodplain going straight up a cliff face etc. They just don't have the data which is why you're allowed to get slab elevation certs.
I can tell you that in Fort Bend County, the FEMA maps need to change after Harvey, even with that being a crazy 5,000+ year flood event; but they haven't changed on the FEMA designation maps. While the county is requiring developers to build and detain water to these new elevations; If you look at what the estimated flood plan "might change to" and then look at how many houses would be looped into the 100 yr floodplain, and think about how much money would have to be spent on mandatory insurance due to loans, it actually makes your eyes bug out.
Gunny456
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I don't blame them. If it was me, I don't think I could go back for now. I think it just depends on the person.TXAG 05 said:Fdsa said:BQ92 said:Fdsa said:
Let's change the scenario:
You're at one of those cabins. It's flooding. The water is 20' in elevation below the cabin. It's the worst lightning storm you have ever seen. Get on the loudspeaker anyways -- "everyone evacuate to higher ground"...everyone does that and lightning strikes a tree a group of girls is under. Tragic...the river never got any closer to those cabins. The guidance said to stay in place. A plaintiff's attorney is now asking you "why didn't you follow the plan and leave everyone in place? The water had never in history reached that cabin!! What were you thinking? FEMA says to stay in place, and your Texas-approved plan said the same." This is essentially the testimony of Glenn, the hero we all talked about on this board.
These legal proceedings have gotten very personal, and the attacks on the Eastlands have gone too far. They are not evil people. Yes, they made mistakes and will forever pay as they go to sleep each night for the rest of their lives.
I do not intend for any of the above to reflect a lack of sorrow for anyone who lost a loved one. This was a tragic event, and I cannot fathom their pain.
My empathy for the Eastlands evaporated when it was announced they would reopen the camp THIS year!!
Yeah, not sure how I feel about that one. It's a different camp completely. I doubt Guadalupe camp will see campers for years. I know they were getting a lot of pressure from families to open Cypress. We don't send our daughter to Mystic, but camp is a huge deal for her every year.
My nieces are/were Mystic girls, and were actually supposed to be there the session the week or 2 after the 4th. Neither one wants to go to Mystic this year and not sure if they are going to any camp at all.
Fdsa said:TXAG 05 said:Fdsa said:BQ92 said:Fdsa said:
Let's change the scenario:
You're at one of those cabins. It's flooding. The water is 20' in elevation below the cabin. It's the worst lightning storm you have ever seen. Get on the loudspeaker anyways -- "everyone evacuate to higher ground"...everyone does that and lightning strikes a tree a group of girls is under. Tragic...the river never got any closer to those cabins. The guidance said to stay in place. A plaintiff's attorney is now asking you "why didn't you follow the plan and leave everyone in place? The water had never in history reached that cabin!! What were you thinking? FEMA says to stay in place, and your Texas-approved plan said the same." This is essentially the testimony of Glenn, the hero we all talked about on this board.
These legal proceedings have gotten very personal, and the attacks on the Eastlands have gone too far. They are not evil people. Yes, they made mistakes and will forever pay as they go to sleep each night for the rest of their lives.
I do not intend for any of the above to reflect a lack of sorrow for anyone who lost a loved one. This was a tragic event, and I cannot fathom their pain.
My empathy for the Eastlands evaporated when it was announced they would reopen the camp THIS year!!
Yeah, not sure how I feel about that one. It's a different camp completely. I doubt Guadalupe camp will see campers for years. I know they were getting a lot of pressure from families to open Cypress. We don't send our daughter to Mystic, but camp is a huge deal for her every year.
My nieces are/were Mystic girls, and were actually supposed to be there the session the week or 2 after the 4th. Neither one wants to go to Mystic this year and not sure if they are going to any camp at all.
I don't blame them. If it was me, I don't think I could go back for now. I think it just depends on the person.
This is one of the things that makes me so damn mad (among many) about the Eastlands. They f-ed up going to camp (possibly ever again) for a ton of innocent little girls.
P.H. Dexippus said:98Ag99Grad said:TxAG-010 said:
There are no winners in this situation, legal battle, or frankly this thread....
Couldn't agree more.
The personal injury plaintiffs' attorneys raking in 40% would disagree. But they are the only ones.
Those attorneys didn't just sit around and make up a lawsuit. Families/clients came to them with a grievance and a desire to file a lawsuit and seek justice for their dead daughters.
No but I can tell you from experience that you will have many call you to solicit how much money they can get for you.
My wife was in a fairly serious car wreck in Houston. I drunk guy in a company truck ran a red light and hit her.
She was injured, her truck totaled. In about 4 weeks our phone started ringing off the wall from attorneys wanting to help us sue them. Literally four to five calls a day….it was ridiculous.
I don't believe in law suits, think they are the devils work. All I wanted was the truck replaced and our medical bills paid.
Attorneys scolded us and told us they could make us millionaires if we sued the company.
So I don't believe for a minute that these families haven't been heavily pressured to sue.
My wife was in a fairly serious car wreck in Houston. I drunk guy in a company truck ran a red light and hit her.
She was injured, her truck totaled. In about 4 weeks our phone started ringing off the wall from attorneys wanting to help us sue them. Literally four to five calls a day….it was ridiculous.
I don't believe in law suits, think they are the devils work. All I wanted was the truck replaced and our medical bills paid.
Attorneys scolded us and told us they could make us millionaires if we sued the company.
So I don't believe for a minute that these families haven't been heavily pressured to sue.
TAMU Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences
Boat racing is like a beautiful woman.......expensive, high maintenance, but well worth the fun!
Boat racing is like a beautiful woman.......expensive, high maintenance, but well worth the fun!
When I saw this post last week I fully expected it to be 14 pages by today. It's a tough subject. I don't know any of the kid's families, but I grieve right there with them and can say I was at the lakehouse for the 4th and we all had a hard time celebrating. And whenever it was brought up I never heard one person talk of what should happen to folks who were "responsible".
I grew up on the Guadalupe also. I know how unpredictable mother nature can be. I have seen homes and other types of property lost or damaged many times and rebuilt right back where they were. Some have to be built differently now to get the flood insurance. It is about risk. And reward. I know things will be put in place at this camp and others because of this tragedy. I know folks who were past campers, past counselors but I do not know any of the current kids or parents. But I know this...lots of money will go to attorneys who prey on grieving families. They are not going to prove negligence. They are going to do what attorneys do best and point fingers at a few folks and tell the jury that this should have never been able to happen. That is simple for them to do. Cruel for everyone involved here and those feelings are what attorneys count on to make money.
Talking to a good friend who is an attorney about this, he said this, If a judge could set a limit of 10% for attorney fees and the remainder " 20-40%"would go to statewide flood warning systems and safety measures, no one would take the case. They don't care about the safety of your kids they care about money. That jury is going to be gone over with a fine toothed comb. Will be very difficult and hard on all involved. A lot of good will come out of this that I believe is happening without the case going to court. But attorneys and a few families want more than that.
I would be willing to bet if Mystic survives, a great memorial will be built to remember the kids, more safety measures will be written into state law requiring camps to meet standards. Good will come from it.
I grew up on the Guadalupe also. I know how unpredictable mother nature can be. I have seen homes and other types of property lost or damaged many times and rebuilt right back where they were. Some have to be built differently now to get the flood insurance. It is about risk. And reward. I know things will be put in place at this camp and others because of this tragedy. I know folks who were past campers, past counselors but I do not know any of the current kids or parents. But I know this...lots of money will go to attorneys who prey on grieving families. They are not going to prove negligence. They are going to do what attorneys do best and point fingers at a few folks and tell the jury that this should have never been able to happen. That is simple for them to do. Cruel for everyone involved here and those feelings are what attorneys count on to make money.
Talking to a good friend who is an attorney about this, he said this, If a judge could set a limit of 10% for attorney fees and the remainder " 20-40%"would go to statewide flood warning systems and safety measures, no one would take the case. They don't care about the safety of your kids they care about money. That jury is going to be gone over with a fine toothed comb. Will be very difficult and hard on all involved. A lot of good will come out of this that I believe is happening without the case going to court. But attorneys and a few families want more than that.
I would be willing to bet if Mystic survives, a great memorial will be built to remember the kids, more safety measures will be written into state law requiring camps to meet standards. Good will come from it.
Second Hardest Workin Man on Texags
jja79 said:
I completely agree. What was the time frame over which the situation went from safe to catastrophic? Following along the newscasts that morning the amount of time that passed seemed remarkably short but I don't really know.
In Hunt, where the gauge is roughly 7 miles downstream and also accounting for extra tributaries not represented in the Guadalupe at mystic……
12:00 am 50 gallons per second …so not much which makes sense since it didn't even start raining until roughly 12 to 12:30am. 1:10am the cell was parked over Kerr county with no steering currents. 1:14 the NWS WARNING was issued.
3:00 am 264 gallons per second
3:30 am 125,000 gallons per second. According to Charlie Hastings, Kerr Co. Engineer, that is a 10' rise that everyone has seen a hundred times before. Not that weird. But very shortly after it was much worse.
90% of the rain that fell fell over the South fork basin.
Starting hard at 1am or so and continuing for several hours.
It's a long watch but the hearings are worth listening to. Most folks here and online are running on hearsay and what they heard someone heard the news say. Much of that is not accurate. Hearing it first hand is eye opening and explains why decisions were made. Everything about warnings, evacuation, leaving sooner, etc are things we talk about knowing the end result and all of the data in the sunlight looking back at the situation from a fish eye lens.
ZoneClubber said:P.H. Dexippus said:98Ag99Grad said:TxAG-010 said:
There are no winners in this situation, legal battle, or frankly this thread....
Couldn't agree more.
The personal injury plaintiffs' attorneys raking in 40% would disagree. But they are the only ones.
Those attorneys didn't just sit around and make up a lawsuit. Families/clients came to them with a grievance and a desire to file a lawsuit and seek justice for their dead daughters.
Meh...The Eastlands won't get a fair shake on this. Courts and lawsuits are never about that. The decisions are already made. We're just going through the motions but it's good to hear it from the horses mouth.
From page 2:
Quote:
The second is that, as elected judges, the trial court judges are not going to let these cases get away from the Plaintiffs. They can't afford to be known as the judge who's court denied relief to these parents/family members on what "had to have been" complete and utter gross negligence (whether it actually was or not). Every ruling is going to cut in favor of the Plaintiffs and I don't even think the SA court of appeals (or Austin, if it goes there) is going to disrupt any ruling or jury verdict. These cases are going one way and one way only.
I agree…lots of stuff repeated from news outlets that we all love to hate…and who want to get the click. Hearings are worth the listen.
There were 135 people killed in the flood, most not from Mystic...I don't think it was just the Eastlands that single-handedly under appreciated the magnitude of the danger of camping along the river that night. Heart O' The Hills' director died and by the grace of God did not have camp in session, otherwise things would have been much worse. The La Junta kids were also swimming to safety or riding the flood out in the rafters of their cabins, fortunately the current was not as strong at their location or that too could have turned out much worse.
Good post. As usual! Good wisdom.
TAMU Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences
Boat racing is like a beautiful woman.......expensive, high maintenance, but well worth the fun!
Boat racing is like a beautiful woman.......expensive, high maintenance, but well worth the fun!
ZoneClubber said:P.H. Dexippus said:98Ag99Grad said:TxAG-010 said:
There are no winners in this situation, legal battle, or frankly this thread....
Couldn't agree more.
The personal injury plaintiffs' attorneys raking in 40% would disagree. But they are the only ones.
Those attorneys didn't just sit around and make up a lawsuit. Families/clients came to them with a grievance and a desire to file a lawsuit and seek justice for their dead daughters.
Assuming this is true, how does that take away from my point that the lawyers are the only winners? The likely outcome of this litigation is the camp will be bankrupted and the property will end up being sold off or owned by the lawyers as compensation for their services. That also doesn't feel like justice for the deceased, but I suppose that depends on your perspective.
Quote:
The La Junta kids were also swimming to safety or riding the flood out in the rafters of their cabins, fortunately the current was not as strong at their location or that too could have turned out much worse.
LaJunta is not the best example to defend the Eastlands. Its evacuation plan was pretty rigorous and allowed counselors to proactively rescue 400 kids without death or injury despite having no warnings.
https://www.kxan.com/independence-day-floods/camp-mystic-testimony-gets-personal-youre-gonna-burn-in-hell/
https://www.statesman.com/opinion/columns/your-voice/article/camp-mystic-hearing-22191701.php
https://www.instagram.com/p/DXKIJ2UCXhb/?igsh=MWFoaGU4YjRhNWsyZw==
https://www.newstimes.com/news/article/camp-mystic-official-testifies-that-deaths-still-22206843.php
https://www.expressnews.com/news/article/camp-mystic-flood-court-victims-families-22205207.php?utm_source=marketing&utm_medium=copy-url-link&utm_campaign=article-share&hash=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZXhwcmVzc25ld3MuY29tL25ld3MvYXJ0aWNsZS9jYW1wLW15c3RpYy1mbG9vZC1jb3VydC12aWN0aW1zLWZhbWlsaWVzLTIyMjA1MjA3LnBocA%3D%3D&time=MTc3NjE5OTA5MTg3OA%3D%3D&rid=ZDRkMDM0NWQtYzVhZC00MjQxLTg2YTQtZTJjNDJiMmQyZGZm&sharecount=Mw%3D%3D
I despise plaintiff attorneys for the most part. That being said, I think there is ample evidence that the Eastlands are incompetent to run a camp like Mystic. And they will not give up unless forced to. And sadly, this appears the only way to do it.
https://www.statesman.com/opinion/columns/your-voice/article/camp-mystic-hearing-22191701.php
https://www.instagram.com/p/DXKIJ2UCXhb/?igsh=MWFoaGU4YjRhNWsyZw==
https://www.newstimes.com/news/article/camp-mystic-official-testifies-that-deaths-still-22206843.php
https://www.expressnews.com/news/article/camp-mystic-flood-court-victims-families-22205207.php?utm_source=marketing&utm_medium=copy-url-link&utm_campaign=article-share&hash=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZXhwcmVzc25ld3MuY29tL25ld3MvYXJ0aWNsZS9jYW1wLW15c3RpYy1mbG9vZC1jb3VydC12aWN0aW1zLWZhbWlsaWVzLTIyMjA1MjA3LnBocA%3D%3D&time=MTc3NjE5OTA5MTg3OA%3D%3D&rid=ZDRkMDM0NWQtYzVhZC00MjQxLTg2YTQtZTJjNDJiMmQyZGZm&sharecount=Mw%3D%3D
I despise plaintiff attorneys for the most part. That being said, I think there is ample evidence that the Eastlands are incompetent to run a camp like Mystic. And they will not give up unless forced to. And sadly, this appears the only way to do it.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Windy City Ag said:Quote:
The La Junta kids were also swimming to safety or riding the flood out in the rafters of their cabins, fortunately the current was not as strong at their location or that too could have turned out much worse.
LaJunta is not the best example to defend the Eastlands. Its evacuation plan was pretty rigorous and allowed counselors to proactively rescue 400 kids without death or injury despite having no warnings.
"In the event your cabin is floating away..." Different set of circumstances at La Junta. Different topography.
Quote:
"In the event your cabin is floating away..." Different set of circumstances at La Junta. Different topography.
That isn't the point people are exploring though.
On the first signs of danger the LaJunta counselors immediately evacuated and in a fashion that was well rehearsed. They knew exactly how and where to go and were empowered to act by design.
Mystic had a 45 minute gap between weather warnings and being hit. It had a one page emergency plan in action that instructed counselors and campers to never leave the cabins during a flood event.
Did the owners of Mystic have plans in place that sealed their campers fate? Did they have available information and enough advanced warning that they could have saved lives?
Those are the points that are being explored.
The problematic portion of the "emergency plan". And it sounds like there were no walkie-talkies, along with the couselors surrendering their phones. So these teenage counselors were left with no means to communicate, get warnings, etc other than on foot. The one they did get was an in-person shout to stay in the cabins. One cabin was saved because a counselor made her own decision to clear the kids out to higher ground
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