Reformation Week

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Zobel
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In reply to 10andBOUNCE • 3:35p, 10/27/25
AG
You haven't answered my question.

I actually think he would have vehemently disagreed with you. I don't think he saw himself converting out of the church - I think that would have been a kind of insane radical view for him, as well as most of the reformers.

And no - those tribes are baptized into a body of believers.
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10andBOUNCE
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In reply to Zobel • 3:45p, 10/27/25
AG
I don't know if I necessarily disagree with you. I am not sure how the mechanics of all that worked as it was playing out real time.
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Zobel
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In reply to 10andBOUNCE • 3:47p, 10/27/25
AG
Seems like should give everyone pause, eh? If he wasn't a convert, as there was no other church to convert to... what are we doing here? Is Christ divided?
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Martin Q. Blank
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In reply to Zobel • 3:48p, 10/27/25
Zobel said:
Quote:
Are you a secular modernist?


No, I'm not.

Ok, then as a non-secular modernist, should the civil government be executing people for teaching others that good works do not make a good man, but that a good man makes good works

Even the "non-secular" states in the world with an established religion of EO don't do this.
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10andBOUNCE
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In reply to Zobel • 4:00p, 10/27/25
AG
It seems like an irrelevant point since the Church had him burned at the stake.
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Zobel
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In reply to Martin Q. Blank • 4:03p, 10/27/25
AG
That's not why he was executed; but you know this.

Is there any religious teaching or violation of any religious commandment that can justly receive the death penalty?
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Zobel
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In reply to 10andBOUNCE • 4:04p, 10/27/25
AG
On the contrary, I think this is the entire point.
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Zobel
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In reply to Martin Q. Blank • 4:07p, 10/27/25
AG
Also, there are no such non-secular states in the world.
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Martin Q. Blank
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In reply to Zobel • 4:14p, 10/27/25
Zobel said:
That's not why he was executed; but you know this.

Is there any religious teaching or violation of any religious commandment that can justly receive the death penalty?

He was executed for teaching others his beliefs. Earlier you acknowledged this as "correct". And for passing out books by Luther. Should the civil government be doing this? We don't and you seem to be blaming the Reformation.

I could see the death penalty for murder, adultery, blasphemy, idolatry, and homosexuality being justified. Maybe others I can't think of.
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Martin Q. Blank
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In reply to Zobel • 4:15p, 10/27/25
Zobel said:
Also, there are no such non-secular states in the world.

So the Reformation created this idea of a secular state and every single country in the world adopted it?
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Zobel
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In reply to Martin Q. Blank • 4:29p, 10/27/25
AG
Yes, but it wasn't "teaching others that good works do not make a good man etc".

He was tried for teaching the heresy of Lutheranism, which in a pre-modern state (a state which is explicitly not secular) is akin to treason. At the time of his trial it was a formal heresy.

Should the civil government execute people for treason? I mean being honest treason against a secular government seems less of a crime in the spiritual sense.

I think teaching the faithful to follow a different religion, which could lead to their ultimate condemnation, is as bad or worse than murder. St Augustine thought so - "therefore those are the sons of the devil who slay men by withdrawing them from the Church."
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Zobel
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In reply to Martin Q. Blank • 4:31p, 10/27/25
AG
More or less, yes. I think you can read the history of liberalism as that of a predatory organism, which systematically has engaged and destroyed all of its opposing forms of government.
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10andBOUNCE
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4:36p, 10/27/25
AG
Titus 3:10-11 is taking on a whole new meaning for me today.
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FIDO95
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4:54p, 10/27/25
AG


I have to admit, I had no idea what an "Old Catholic" was. Nonetheless, I've been a fan of Cavin Robinson and the fight he has been lighting from within the Anglican Church before being run out. Final sentence sums up my sentiments on the matter.
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dermdoc
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In reply to Martin Q. Blank • 5:34p, 10/27/25
AG
Martin Q. Blank said:
Zobel said:
That's not why he was executed; but you know this.

Is there any religious teaching or violation of any religious commandment that can justly receive the death penalty?

He was executed for teaching others his beliefs. Earlier you acknowledged this as "correct". And for passing out books by Luther. Should the civil government be doing this? We don't and you seem to be blaming the Reformation.

I could see the death penalty for murder, adultery, blasphemy, idolatry, and homosexuality being justified. Maybe others I can't think of.

What was Servatus executed for? Neither "side" is innocent. And I never read where Jesus, Paul, or anybody in the NT (except for when the disciples were rebuked harshly by the Lord when they wanted to destroy their enemies) advocating executing people for anything. Much less people with different theological views.

Not adultery or any of the things listed above. Do you think Jesus would have ordered someone to be burned at the stake for anything?
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dermdoc
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In reply to 10andBOUNCE • 6:16p, 10/27/25
AG
10andBOUNCE said:
Titus 3:10-11 is taking on a whole new meaning for me today.

Amen. From my reading that Scripture says nothing about executing divisive people.
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Zobel
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In reply to dermdoc • 6:24p, 10/27/25
AG
Quote:
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer.

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dermdoc
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In reply to Zobel • 6:55p, 10/27/25
AG
Zobel said:
Quote:
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer.


You can hear a sword without using it. I think governing authorities should act Christ like. I do not think Christ would burn anyone at the stake.
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Zobel
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In reply to dermdoc • 7:03p, 10/27/25
AG
It says he doesn't bear the sword idly, with no purpose. in other words St Paul is saying he has the sword to use it.

Fire from heaven has consumed people. That is God acting directly.

Leviticus 10:1-2
Numbers 16:35
1 Kings 18:20-40

The Angel of the Lord, who is Jesus Christ, killed a lot of people in the OT.

He also explicitly commands the death penalty for those of Israel who reject the Torah - blasphemy, idolatry, intentionally violating the torah, etc.
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dermdoc
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In reply to Zobel • 7:10p, 10/27/25
AG
Zobel said:
It says he doesn't bear the sword idly, with no purpose. in other words St Paul is saying he has the sword to use it.

Fire from heaven has consumed people. That is God acting directly.

Leviticus 10:1-2
Numbers 16:35
1 Kings 18:20-40

The Angel of the Lord, who is Jesus Christ, killed a lot of people in the OT.

He also explicitly commands the death penalty for those of Israel who reject the Torah - blasphemy, idolatry, intentionally violating the torah, etc.

It also says stone adulterers. What did Jesus do when confronted with that sin? And how did He deal with the "authorities" in that situation? Where did Jesus advocate killing anyone?

I also do not think it is clear theologically that the Angel of the Lord is Jesus Christ. Could be but I do not know.

Do you believe we under a new covenant with the work of Christ?
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dermdoc
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In reply to Zobel • 7:34p, 10/27/25
AG
And I do not want to be devisive as the Scripture from Titus warned us of. Will defer to you.
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Zobel
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In reply to dermdoc • 7:40p, 10/27/25
AG
Much ink has been spilled about the woman caught in adultery, but I think reading it as "this overturns capital punishment in the Torah" is a complete misread. For one, God doesn't change, and Christ is the one who gave the Torah. Why would He reverse Himself and His own commandments?

First, this was a political trap - the Jewish leaders had no authority to execute anyone (see John 18:31) without Roman approval. This is much like the "render unto Caesar" dilemma - if He says don't stone her, they accuse Him of approving of violating the Torah; if He says execute her, they could accuse Him of conflicting with Roman authority as well as perhaps hypocrisy on His own teaching of mercy.

On top of that, this is not Torah correctly applied. In the Torah (Lev 20:10 and Duet 22:22) both the man and woman were subject to punishment. Yet here there is no man. The Torah also requires witnesses (two or three, see Duet 17:6 and 19:15. There is no record of a witness at all, only the accused.

Jesus doesn't say "hey guys, the death penalty is barbaric and unjust" or "the death penalty shouldn't be used for adultery, only more serious matters." He says - if you are without sin, cast the stone. This does not deny the Torah, but the injustice - it upholds Torah. They lacked the witnesses and the authority, and he exposes their own sin. This is a critique of hypocrisy and misapplication of the Torah by the giver of the Torah.

And He tells her to go and sin no more. Part of the death penalty for the Torah is not for sin as such, but for unrepentant sin without repentance - sin with the hand held high. Those people were setting themselves in rebellion against God, and must be cut off. St Paul affirms this, saying - "expel the wicked man from among you." If you go and look at the times when this phrase is in the Torah almost all of them are in the context of a penalty up to and including death. (Deuteronomy 13:5, 17:7, 21:21, 22:21, 24:7). It is not right to say that Jesus abrogates or changes the teaching of the Torah, or St Paul - both deny this explicitly.
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Zobel
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In reply to dermdoc • 7:44p, 10/27/25
AG
St Justin writes about the Angel of the Lord, you can read it here. That is the small-o orthodox teaching.

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/01285.htm

And yes, we are under a new covenant. But it fulfills, perfects the old - it does not negate it or overturn it in any way. The Lord teaches this literally.
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AgLiving06
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8:08p, 10/27/25
I'm a little late to the party, but it's really an incorrect statement to blame the Reformation for the splits within Christianity.

The splits were coming one way or the other. Rome could only execute so many people and technology was beginning to outpace that ability.

Luther wasn't the first Reformer, just part of the increasingly educated group who could see how corrupt Rome was. Even Erasmus, who was called to speak against Luther, did so mostly to avoid accusations and potential punishment.

Had it not been Luther, it would have been someone else. We know God would not have allowed his church to stay corrupted and so reforming was going to be necessary.
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94chem
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In reply to Quo Vadis? • 11:13p, 10/27/25
Quo Vadis? said:
94chem said:
Zobel said:
It was such a pivotal event in western history that I don't think the arc has played out yet.

It fractured Christendom and ushered in the modern era. This created the new form of government - the secular state - and has lead to the collapse of spirituality in the west.

So the final returns are not in, but so far it basically looks like an unmitigated disaster.

Despite the heroic efforts of people at Wycliffe and partners, who have reached across denominational lines to translate the scriptures into over 1500 languages, it is a fact that over 3 billion people on this planet are still unreached, without an indigenous church, and the number is growing. Many, if not most of these people, actually have a Bible in their language, but no one is there to give it to them, to tell them about Jesus, to help establish a local church, etc. They are, simply put, lost. I am not here to make any judgment on their eternal state; that is not my job. However, I can say unequivocally that they would be far better off by knowing Christ. I don't care what branch of Christianity you belong to - if you can't agree with that statement, you aren't a Christian.

So there was this small village in India, and there was a young woman with some deep affliction. The local spiritual leaders couldn't help her. Not the Muslims, Hindus, spiritists of various stripes, none of them. But one day, by God's providence, an evangelical Protestant missionary happened upon the village, prayed for the woman, and she was healed. And the father of the family was healed from alcoholism and abuse. And the family heard about Jesus, and now one of them has decided to become a missionary. He travels from village to village, going places that you and I could never go, knocking on doors, sharing the Good News, baptizing converts, and setting up churches. He does this for $40/month.

And he is not alone. There are 15,000 missionaries just like him, who need a total of 150,000 months of support. Their organization, Gospel for Asia, has raised about 8,000 months so far. These missionaries are champing at the bit, ready to deploy, and waiting on support.

Granted, I just shared an anecdote, albeit a fairly important one. My question is, how can we be partners in the service of our Lord if you truly believe the word "unmitigated" is appropriate?


Bro we've got a Catholic Church in India that dates back to year 52. Again, congrats on the evangelical stuff, but there's a reason there are 1.4 billion Catholics. The only way your argument makes sense is if there are Protestant missionaries today who otherwise wouldn't have become missionaries had Martin Luther not decided to do what he did.


I'm not the one who used the word "unmitigated."

Of course Catholics are against the Reformation. Ain't taking that bait.
94chem,
That, sir, was the greatest post in the history of TexAgs. I salute you. -- Dough
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Zobel
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In reply to 94chem • 8:19a, 10/28/25
AG
Unmitigated doesn't mean "and nothing good ever happened again".
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Quo Vadis?
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In reply to AgLiving06 • 12:03p, 10/28/25
AgLiving06 said:
I'm a little late to the party, but it's really an incorrect statement to blame the Reformation for the splits within Christianity.

The splits were coming one way or the other. Rome could only execute so many people and technology was beginning to outpace that ability.

Luther wasn't the first Reformer, just part of the increasingly educated group who could see how corrupt Rome was. Even Erasmus, who was called to speak against Luther, did so mostly to avoid accusations and potential punishment.

Had it not been Luther, it would have been someone else. We know God would not have allowed his church to stay corrupted and so reforming was going to be necessary.


If you ever talk to a kid from a broken home there's always plenty of reasons for one parent to divorce the other, but it always takes one person to pull the trigger.

Much like with a marriage, bad actions by one person do not invalidate the marriage. If I cheat on my wife, we are still married. If my wife cheats on me, we are still married. Christ created the Catholic Church, and bad actors do not invalidate that.

The reformation didn't reform the church, it tried to create its own; but just succeeded in being a heresy. Like a married guy who is "separated" and thinks he can date because he told his wife they're separated.
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10andBOUNCE
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In reply to Quo Vadis? • 12:31p, 10/28/25
AG
Quote:
The reformation didn't reform the church, it tried to create its own

This is not at all what Luther's objective was. He wanted an academic debate that really was brought on by the sale of indulgences. Obviously that wasn't all of it. There was then widespread printing of Luther's work and the rest is history.

I am curious the idea that Catholics may lack humility as it relates to theology, doctrine, and sound practice of them. As I stated earlier, I am a firm believer that any tradition is off base somewhere and we should all be inwardly evaluating how we live our lives personally, relationally and ecclesiastically in the light of the gospel of Christ. Do Catholics and EO essentially see their organizations as perfectly run?
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Quo Vadis?
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In reply to 10andBOUNCE • 1:05p, 10/28/25
10andBOUNCE said:
Quote:
The reformation didn't reform the church, it tried to create its own

This is not at all what Luther's objective was. He wanted an academic debate that really was brought on by the sale of indulgences. Obviously that wasn't all of it. There was then widespread printing of Luther's work and the rest is history.

I am curious the idea that Catholics may lack humility as it relates to theology, doctrine, and sound practice of them. As I stated earlier, I am a firm believer that any tradition is off base somewhere and we should all be inwardly evaluating how we live our lives personally, relationally and ecclesiastically in the light of the gospel of Christ. Do Catholics and EO essentially see their organizations as perfectly run?


Perfectly run? Far from it. To use the marriage example again, my wife isn't perfect; I'm far from perfect; but that doesn't give either of us license to leave. If there's something wrong with the marriage, we fix it. We don't leave, we commit to making it better.

The trinity is the only perfect. The church qua church is perfect because it is the body of Christ; with himself at its head.
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Zobel
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In reply to 10andBOUNCE • 1:31p, 10/28/25
AG
perfectly run? Man we have icons of patriarchs in hellfire.
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747Ag
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1:40p, 10/28/25
AG
Hilaire Belloc:
Quote:
The Catholic Church is an institution I am bound to hold divine but for unbelievers a proof of its divinity might be found in the fact that no merely human institution conducted with such knavish imbecility would have lasted a fortnight.


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Zobel
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2:27p, 10/28/25
AG
not for nothin' - was the priesthood of Aaron perfectly run? or the kingship of Israel?
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10andBOUNCE
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In reply to Zobel • 2:45p, 10/28/25
AG
there were some pretty serious sins committed within that example...
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Zobel
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In reply to 10andBOUNCE • 2:49p, 10/28/25
AG
yes, exactly. yet that doesn't invalidate the levitical priesthood, or the kingship. or make them any less ordained by God.

and in fact rebellion against both of those (by korah, or by the northern kingdom) creates unique problems with further consequences.
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AGC
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In reply to Quo Vadis? • 4:08p, 10/28/25
AG
Quo Vadis? said:
10andBOUNCE said:
Quote:
The reformation didn't reform the church, it tried to create its own

This is not at all what Luther's objective was. He wanted an academic debate that really was brought on by the sale of indulgences. Obviously that wasn't all of it. There was then widespread printing of Luther's work and the rest is history.

I am curious the idea that Catholics may lack humility as it relates to theology, doctrine, and sound practice of them. As I stated earlier, I am a firm believer that any tradition is off base somewhere and we should all be inwardly evaluating how we live our lives personally, relationally and ecclesiastically in the light of the gospel of Christ. Do Catholics and EO essentially see their organizations as perfectly run?


Perfectly run? Far from it. To use the marriage example again, my wife isn't perfect; I'm far from perfect; but that doesn't give either of us license to leave. If there's something wrong with the marriage, we fix it. We don't leave, we commit to making it better.

The trinity is the only perfect. The church qua church is perfect because it is the body of Christ; with himself at its head.


Is that how the RCC interprets its own history, like with Luther and those burned at the stake throughout time? Or the schism with the east? Everyone else bailed on the marriage? Sounds more like someone with Borderline personality disorder than the bride.
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