Given that Reformation Day is this coming Friday, I thought it might be interesting to gauge how different Christian traditions view the Reformation. Whether or not you view it as an overall positive or overall negative in the grand landscape of the Church, there is no doubt some impact to be felt. I would hope that any tradition can rally around the theme of God's providential loving kindness towards his people and Church.

Genesis 50:20: As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.

For the Western Catholic Church, whom the protest was aimed at, what are your takeaways? What would your tradition look like if the Protestant Reformers had never been born (akin to It's a Wonderful Life)? What good can be taken from it, if any?

For the Eastern Catholic Church, is the mantra of Jeremias II still applicable that stated the Orthodox and Protestants could "go their separate ways in peace?"

For the Arminian Protestants who reject a good portion of the original Reformers' teaching, how do you view it today? What if the Reformers never came to be?

For those that affirm a majority of Reformed doctrine, what does this week mean to you? How do you view our relationship with other non-reformed traditions?

For me, as a Reformed Baptist (1689 LBC), one view I hold from the Reformation today is "semper reformanda" in that the Church should always be reforming. This doesn't mean changing, but reforming in that we are becoming more like Christ as given in scripture. The idea that any one tradition has just completely knocked it out of the park theologically and now has got it on cruise control is not reality nor will it ever be.

I'd like to do better myself, striving to view other traditions with Paul's admonition in 2 Timothy to not quarrel over words and to seek peace. At the same time, we must all rally around the one true gospel of Jesus Christ as pointed out in Galatians. At the same time, anyone preaching a contrary gospel should be accursed!

At the end of the day, it is all for the glory of God and God alone.

It was such a pivotal event in western history that I don't think the arc has played out yet.

It fractured Christendom and ushered in the modern era. This created the new form of government - the secular state - and has lead to the collapse of spirituality in the west.

So the final returns are not in, but so far it basically looks like an unmitigated disaster.

Shoot it

Zobel said:

---

It was such a pivotal event in western history that I don't think the arc has played out yet.

It fractured Christendom and ushered in the modern era. This created the new form of government - the secular state - and has lead to the collapse of spirituality in the west.

So the final returns are not in, but so far it basically looks like an unmitigated disaster.

---

Despite the heroic efforts of people at Wycliffe and partners, who have reached across denominational lines to translate the scriptures into over 1500 languages, it is a fact that over 3 billion people on this planet are still unreached, without an indigenous church, and the number is growing. Many, if not most of these people, actually have a Bible in their language, but no one is there to give it to them, to tell them about Jesus, to help establish a local church, etc. They are, simply put, lost. I am not here to make any judgment on their eternal state; that is not my job. However, I can say unequivocally that they would be far better off by knowing Christ. I don't care what branch of Christianity you belong to - if you can't agree with that statement, you aren't a Christian.

So there was this small village in India, and there was a young woman with some deep affliction. The local spiritual leaders couldn't help her. Not the Muslims, Hindus, spiritists of various stripes, none of them. But one day, by God's providence, an evangelical Protestant missionary happened upon the village, prayed for the woman, and she was healed. And the father of the family was healed from alcoholism and abuse. And the family heard about Jesus, and now one of them has decided to become a missionary. He travels from village to village, going places that you and I could never go, knocking on doors, sharing the Good News, baptizing converts, and setting up churches. He does this for $40/month.

And he is not alone. There are 15,000 missionaries just like him, who need a total of 150,000 months of support. Their organization, Gospel for Asia, has raised about 8,000 months so far. These missionaries are champing at the bit, ready to deploy, and waiting on support.

Granted, I just shared an anecdote, albeit a fairly important one. My question is, how can we be partners in the service of our Lord if you truly believe the word "unmitigated" is appropriate?

Our Church is focusing on the country of Scotland as it relates to the Reformation.

It amazes me a man was put to death by so called Christians for his Christian faith.
https://reformationhistory.org/patrickhamilton.html

Quote:

---

Patrick Hamilton was the first martyr of the Scottish Reformation the first person to die for his faith.

---

Quote:

---

After finishing university in France, Hamilton came home and in 1524 became a Professor at the University of St Andrews. Luther's books were banned in 1525 but many copies of them were still available, along with the first translation of the Bible from Greek into English by William Tyndale in 1526. Hamilton became convinced that Luther's teachings were from the Bible and was converted. However St Andrews was the centre of Roman Catholicism in Scotland at this time and his new beliefs attracted the attention of Archbishop James Beaton in 1527. Twenty-three year old Hamilton was not yet ready to take on the Roman Catholic Church, so he fled to Germany.

In Germany, Hamilton wrote a book called Patrick's Places. The main point of the book was that people can only be saved through faith in Christ and not by good works. At the centre of everything Patrick Hamilton believed and taught was Jesus Christ and what He had done. He became determined to go back to Scotland to preach the good news, even though he knew it would be to risk his life.

---

Quote:

---

Archbishop Beaton quickly became aware of his return however and summoned Patrick to appear before him. His accusers allowed him to preach openly in the university for about a month, hoping that he would it would give them more evidence against him. However instead many important people were converted.

---

Quote:

---

On the 29th of February Hamilton was summoned for trial. He refused to deny his beliefs and was sentenced to be burnt at the stake the same day for being a heretic (accepting false doctrines). His death was slow and painful because the fire kept going out, and it took him six hours to die. His death was a turning point however. Archbishop Beaton was advised that if he had to burn any more heretics, he should do it in deep cellars so that no-one would know, because 'the reek of Mister Patrick Hamilton has infected as many as it blew upon'.

---

Furthermore from another source
https://steadfastlutherans.org/blog/2016/02/sir-patrick-hamilton-the-first-lutheran-martyr-in-scotland/

Quote:

---

...a list of thirteen charges were brought against Hamilton:

1. That the corruption of sin remains in the child after baptism
2. That no man is able by mere force of free will to do any good thing
3. That no one continues without sins so long as he is in this life
4. That every true Christian must know if he is in the state of grace
5. That a man is not justified by works but by faith alone
6. That good works do not make a good man, but that a good man makes good works
7. That faith, hope, and charity[5] are so closely united that he who has one of these virtues has also the others
8. That it may be held that God is cause of sin in this sense, that when he withholds his grace from a man, the latter cannot but sin
9. That it is a devilish doctrine to teach that remission of sins can be obtained by means of certain penances
10. That auricular confession[6] is not necessary to salvation
11. That there is no purgatory
12. That the holy patriarchs were in heaven before the passion of Jesus Christ
13. That a priest has just as much power a pope

---

And lastly...
https://landmarkevents.org/history-highlights-week-of-february-26/

Quote:

---

When offered his life for a recantation Patrick Hamilton replied:

"As to my confession, I will not deny it for the fear of your fire, for my confession and belief is in Christ Jesus. Therefore I will not deny it. I will rather be content that my body burn in this fire for the confession of my faith in Christ, than my soul should burn in the fire of hell for denying the same."

---

In what way is this story not possible without the Reformation? Do you think missionaries didn't exist before 1517?

Well, because he was put to death after converting FROM Catholicism due to the works of Matin Luther by a Roman Catholic Archbishop for going against mainstream Catholic/EO doctrine.

94chem said:

---

Zobel said:

---

It was such a pivotal event in western history that I don't think the arc has played out yet.

It fractured Christendom and ushered in the modern era. This created the new form of government - the secular state - and has lead to the collapse of spirituality in the west.

So the final returns are not in, but so far it basically looks like an unmitigated disaster.

---

Despite the heroic efforts of people at Wycliffe and partners, who have reached across denominational lines to translate the scriptures into over 1500 languages, it is a fact that over 3 billion people on this planet are still unreached, without an indigenous church, and the number is growing. Many, if not most of these people, actually have a Bible in their language, but no one is there to give it to them, to tell them about Jesus, to help establish a local church, etc. They are, simply put, lost. I am not here to make any judgment on their eternal state; that is not my job. However, I can say unequivocally that they would be far better off by knowing Christ. I don't care what branch of Christianity you belong to - if you can't agree with that statement, you aren't a Christian.

So there was this small village in India, and there was a young woman with some deep affliction. The local spiritual leaders couldn't help her. Not the Muslims, Hindus, spiritists of various stripes, none of them. But one day, by God's providence, an evangelical Protestant missionary happened upon the village, prayed for the woman, and she was healed. And the father of the family was healed from alcoholism and abuse. And the family heard about Jesus, and now one of them has decided to become a missionary. He travels from village to village, going places that you and I could never go, knocking on doors, sharing the Good News, baptizing converts, and setting up churches. He does this for $40/month.

And he is not alone. There are 15,000 missionaries just like him, who need a total of 150,000 months of support. Their organization, Gospel for Asia, has raised about 8,000 months so far. These missionaries are champing at the bit, ready to deploy, and waiting on support.

Granted, I just shared an anecdote, albeit a fairly important one. My question is, how can we be partners in the service of our Lord if you truly believe the word "unmitigated" is appropriate?

---

Bro we've got a Catholic Church in India that dates back to year 52. Again, congrats on the evangelical stuff, but there's a reason there are 1.4 billion Catholics. The only way your argument makes sense is if there are Protestant missionaries today who otherwise wouldn't have become missionaries had Martin Luther not decided to do what he did.

10andBOUNCE said:

---

Our Church is focusing on the country of Scotland as it relates to the Reformation.

It amazes me a man was put to death by so called Christians for his Christian faith.
https://reformationhistory.org/patrickhamilton.html

Quote:

---

Patrick Hamilton was the first martyr of the Scottish Reformation the first person to die for his faith.

---

Quote:

---

After finishing university in France, Hamilton came home and in 1524 became a Professor at the University of St Andrews. Luther's books were banned in 1525 but many copies of them were still available, along with the first translation of the Bible from Greek into English by William Tyndale in 1526. Hamilton became convinced that Luther's teachings were from the Bible and was converted. However St Andrews was the centre of Roman Catholicism in Scotland at this time and his new beliefs attracted the attention of Archbishop James Beaton in 1527. Twenty-three year old Hamilton was not yet ready to take on the Roman Catholic Church, so he fled to Germany.

In Germany, Hamilton wrote a book called Patrick's Places. The main point of the book was that people can only be saved through faith in Christ and not by good works. At the centre of everything Patrick Hamilton believed and taught was Jesus Christ and what He had done. He became determined to go back to Scotland to preach the good news, even though he knew it would be to risk his life.

---

Quote:

---

Archbishop Beaton quickly became aware of his return however and summoned Patrick to appear before him. His accusers allowed him to preach openly in the university for about a month, hoping that he would it would give them more evidence against him. However instead many important people were converted.

---

Quote:

---

On the 29th of February Hamilton was summoned for trial. He refused to deny his beliefs and was sentenced to be burnt at the stake the same day for being a heretic (accepting false doctrines). His death was slow and painful because the fire kept going out, and it took him six hours to die. His death was a turning point however. Archbishop Beaton was advised that if he had to burn any more heretics, he should do it in deep cellars so that no-one would know, because 'the reek of Mister Patrick Hamilton has infected as many as it blew upon'.

---

Furthermore from another source
https://steadfastlutherans.org/blog/2016/02/sir-patrick-hamilton-the-first-lutheran-martyr-in-scotland/

Quote:

---

...a list of thirteen charges were brought against Hamilton:

1. That the corruption of sin remains in the child after baptism
2. That no man is able by mere force of free will to do any good thing
3. That no one continues without sins so long as he is in this life
4. That every true Christian must know if he is in the state of grace
5. That a man is not justified by works but by faith alone
6. That good works do not make a good man, but that a good man makes good works
7. That faith, hope, and charity[5] are so closely united that he who has one of these virtues has also the others
8. That it may be held that God is cause of sin in this sense, that when he withholds his grace from a man, the latter cannot but sin
9. That it is a devilish doctrine to teach that remission of sins can be obtained by means of certain penances
10. That auricular confession[6] is not necessary to salvation
11. That there is no purgatory
12. That the holy patriarchs were in heaven before the passion of Jesus Christ
13. That a priest has just as much power a pope

---

And lastly...
https://landmarkevents.org/history-highlights-week-of-february-26/

Quote:

---

When offered his life for a recantation Patrick Hamilton replied:

"As to my confession, I will not deny it for the fear of your fire, for my confession and belief is in Christ Jesus. Therefore I will not deny it. I will rather be content that my body burn in this fire for the confession of my faith in Christ, than my soul should burn in the fire of hell for denying the same."

---

---

We can argue about whether he should have been put to death, but not over whether or not he was a heretic. His views were absolutely heretical, seriously just read his 13 points.

People were put to death far more frequently back then, they were barbaric times.

From Michael Servetus to the Salem Witches, it has been a fairly common punishment for heretics/blasphemers.

Does that fall under Apostolic Tradition?

10andBOUNCE said:

---

Our Church is focusing on the country of Scotland as it relates to the Reformation.

It amazes me a man was put to death by so called Christians for his Christian faith.
https://reformationhistory.org/patrickhamilton.html

Quote:

---

Patrick Hamilton was the first martyr of the Scottish Reformation the first person to die for his faith.

---

Quote:

---

After finishing university in France, Hamilton came home and in 1524 became a Professor at the University of St Andrews. Luther's books were banned in 1525 but many copies of them were still available, along with the first translation of the Bible from Greek into English by William Tyndale in 1526. Hamilton became convinced that Luther's teachings were from the Bible and was converted. However St Andrews was the centre of Roman Catholicism in Scotland at this time and his new beliefs attracted the attention of Archbishop James Beaton in 1527. Twenty-three year old Hamilton was not yet ready to take on the Roman Catholic Church, so he fled to Germany.

In Germany, Hamilton wrote a book called Patrick's Places. The main point of the book was that people can only be saved through faith in Christ and not by good works. At the centre of everything Patrick Hamilton believed and taught was Jesus Christ and what He had done. He became determined to go back to Scotland to preach the good news, even though he knew it would be to risk his life.

---

Quote:

---

Archbishop Beaton quickly became aware of his return however and summoned Patrick to appear before him. His accusers allowed him to preach openly in the university for about a month, hoping that he would it would give them more evidence against him. However instead many important people were converted.

---

Quote:

---

On the 29th of February Hamilton was summoned for trial. He refused to deny his beliefs and was sentenced to be burnt at the stake the same day for being a heretic (accepting false doctrines). His death was slow and painful because the fire kept going out, and it took him six hours to die. His death was a turning point however. Archbishop Beaton was advised that if he had to burn any more heretics, he should do it in deep cellars so that no-one would know, because 'the reek of Mister Patrick Hamilton has infected as many as it blew upon'.

---

Furthermore from another source
https://steadfastlutherans.org/blog/2016/02/sir-patrick-hamilton-the-first-lutheran-martyr-in-scotland/

Quote:

---

...a list of thirteen charges were brought against Hamilton:

1. That the corruption of sin remains in the child after baptism
2. That no man is able by mere force of free will to do any good thing
3. That no one continues without sins so long as he is in this life
4. That every true Christian must know if he is in the state of grace
5. That a man is not justified by works but by faith alone
6. That good works do not make a good man, but that a good man makes good works
7. That faith, hope, and charity[5] are so closely united that he who has one of these virtues has also the others
8. That it may be held that God is cause of sin in this sense, that when he withholds his grace from a man, the latter cannot but sin
9. That it is a devilish doctrine to teach that remission of sins can be obtained by means of certain penances
10. That auricular confession[6] is not necessary to salvation
11. That there is no purgatory
12. That the holy patriarchs were in heaven before the passion of Jesus Christ
13. That a priest has just as much power a pope

---

And lastly...
https://landmarkevents.org/history-highlights-week-of-february-26/

Quote:

---

When offered his life for a recantation Patrick Hamilton replied:

"As to my confession, I will not deny it for the fear of your fire, for my confession and belief is in Christ Jesus. Therefore I will not deny it. I will rather be content that my body burn in this fire for the confession of my faith in Christ, than my soul should burn in the fire of hell for denying the same."

---

---

Both "sides" did these things. Calvin burned Servatus at the stake for not believing in the Trinity.

I don't know what you mean "go their separate ways in peace". Jeremias told the Lutherans clearly where their views put them outside the faith. They began and ended out of communion with the east.

An interesting point - do you know being out of communion isn't the same as being a schismatic?

Where it moves from a break in communion to schism is when you attempt to stand up an opposing ecclesial hierarchy, when you try to start a separate church against the authority or jurisdiction of the other. Or, you might say, when you start trying to convert people to your particular views of Christianity.

Quote:

---

He became determined to go back to Scotland to preach the good news, even though he knew it would be to risk his life.

---

He went from being a heretic to a schismatic. He was not executed for "being a heretic (accepting false doctrines)," he was executed for preaching and teaching as a schismatic. Those aren't the same thing.

10andBOUNCE said:

---

I am curious how the Church, governed equally by scripture and tradition, can with a straight face put to death heretics? And that applies to any tradition. For the West and East, Apostolic Tradition is paramount, so was there some kind of tradition passed down I am not aware of?

---

A quick point here, the church rarely ever actually put people to death, just charged them with heresy and handed them over to the civil authorities who actually put them to death.

The reasoning behind such an action was that heresy was a "soul killing" behavior (as described by St Thomas Aquinas) and far more damaging than actual murder; AND that heresy was also in and of itself destructive to society and needed to be put out in the harshest way possible. We know what Christ said about those who lead little children astray.

Also, apostolic tradition doesn't work the way you seem to think it does. Apostolic succession doesn't give guidance on fines for certain types of behavior, or punishments, or tell people what colors to wear on certain days; or anything so commonplace. Apostolic tradition are the beliefs of the church. The way the church has practiced their faith as passed down from the apostles.

If you're a secular modernist, and physical death is the worst imaginable thing, then I suppose so.

I'm curious. Is there any justification for the government executing people in your opinion?

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

Zobel said:

---

Correct, and breaking parliament's laws about disseminating Lutheran print.

His grandfather was the second son of James II. The wiki article suggests there was additional political struggle going on, which may well be true. This era was a time where religion and politics interacted in a way we moderns don't grasp very well.

---

For worse, right? The civil government should be executing people for teaching others that good works do not make a good man, but that a good man makes good works?

---

Maybe not that one, but perhaps for 5-6 of the other 13 things he said. Somehow chicken and egg example was his strongest.

This is still interesting. To what?

You can't be a Christian in isolation. You have to have a church. You are baptized into a body, a community. You live your life and receive the sacraments through a priesthood, which flows from Christ Himself. This is as true for Christians today as it was for faithful Israelites in the Torah. Being exiled / cut off from the people meant a loss of identity, and was equivalent to death.

So... if he decided he wasn't going to be a Catholic what eucharistic community was he joining? What did he become?

What happens with these remote tribes that are ministered to? They get preached the gospel, repent, believe and are baptized. Still no dice?

Quote:

---

Are you a secular modernist?

---

No, I'm not. I was raised in a secular modern environment, so a lot of my reactions, thought patterns or forms of thinking are heavily influenced by that, yes. But I reject secular modernism and its presuppositions. Or perhaps because of its presuppositions.

For example, I'm not a materialist, so I don't think the best and ultimate good for a person is that they get to act on their personal desires and call it freedom, and that their physical needs are met to enable them to do so. That's why I don't think death is the worst thing that can happen to someone. That puts me at odds with the philosophical framework of Enlightenment-era liberalism.

Quote:

---

Of course

---

I assume one justification may be for justice after a murder. What about for causing a fate worse than death? Or for causing a child to stumble?