So how do you reconcile these dates?

Their ages seem a little bit too far apart, and he was captured by Brenner since he was… 11 years old?

Not sure but I think they are retconning a lot to get the Broadway show and TV show to match up. Never even knew about the Broadway show till watching some of the recap viideos

When did Joyce and Henry in school together show up on screen?!? Did I miss something?

It evidently happens in the Broadway show stranger things first shadow

Stive said:

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When did Joyce and Henry in school together show up on screen?!? Did I miss something?

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It was the scene when Max first walks into Henry's memories , walking through the corridors of high school. You hear someone talking to Joyce about a high school play, and you can hear Joyce's voice. I didn't realize it was a call back to the Broadway show, but my daughter told me that it was, and that there was a whole Back story with all the parents in high school.

I'm not sure I wouldn't take Lonnie straight up in a fight vs. Vecna. Guy probably fights better drunk than sober, still driving a muscle car in his 40s, very powerful Midwestern White Trash vibes of a guy that probably has a switch tucked in his belt at all times and would absolutely smash a beer bottle (as long as it's empty) over Vecna's head.



My more serious feeling is that Vecna wants to use Will for something and perhaps will tempt him with "Everyone goes free if you help me" card. But killing Will's mother before playing that card wouldn't be advisable.

Maybe he's using Will to get to Joyce, who he always loved. Like Max turning Michael into a vampire in the Lost Boys to snag their mom.

Don't really think that will happen, but it would definitely be another good 80s homage.

I am curious how much the Broadway show backstory is going to matter; it's one thing if it's just an easter egg or two but if a big chunk of the plot hinges on something that happened off screen, in a format that very few people have had the opportunity to see, that would suck.

LEGO tracked down Buckwheat to act as a model for the set.



Full details: https://gizmodo.com/lego-stranger-things-creel-house-price-release-date-minifigures-2000694615

Enjoyed it more than I thought I would. Probably my favorite since season one.

So far I'm really liking this season. I've only made it through ep 1 & 2. Got lots of theories of what Veccna's endgame is.

There was some very obvious tributes to Back to the Future both in this season and in S3. I hope they do not go the time travel route. I feel like that's been done before and would cheapen a lot of what has happened in the previous seasons

I wouldn't hope for that or you'll be disappointed. They've been hinting at time travel for far too long.

Personally I love time travel so I'm here for it.

Heard an interesting theory on the House of R podcast about episodes 3-4.

In the Henry memory, the flyer for the school play has the date as Nov 6, 1959. And they've already mentioned that's the same date Will is taken in 1983. And we're a few days away from that day in 1987.

So it seems like things might be lining up to have three different teams in three different timelines, all happening "simultaneously" on Nov 6. That could be super cool.

And they've already talked about wormholes in Erica's class. Chekov's wormhole for sure.

It's a little too close to Endgame, admittedly. But, I'd still enjoy it.

Just realized, that HAS to be the explanation for where Vecna has been hiding, right? He must be in the past. It seems weird they wouldn't have found him yet.

I'm starting to get on your track on this. Where there's dimensions of sorts for Vecna.

My wife and I were just talking about the confusing aspect of the upside down. Example would be that El and Hopper enter physically through the portals. But then Vecna last season was physically interacting with our victims like Chrissy or Max without ever being physically present in the right side up. And then this season with the projection of himself with Holly in the first episode.

So there's a physical and a meta physical aspect to the upside down?

I noted that the this season was the first time El had ever been in the Upside Down physically

I also find it interesting that none of the grownups have been particularly scared of the Monsters - Karen and even George took their shots at the Demo, and Joyce fought the Demo and threatened Vecna.

I usually bag on Finn Wolfhard, but his reaction to acutally seeing Vecna for the first time was really strong.

It has been my understanding through the end of S4 that the Upside Down was a "snapshot in time" so to speak of Hawkins, IN from Nov 6, 1983. A decaying mirror of Hawkins, if you will. And that Eleven didn't create it, per say, but at least opened the first gate to it when she had that psychic encounter with the Demagorgon. Henry was sent somewhere else, Dimension X, and that is where he became Vecna.

Is this y'all's understanding or am I way off base?

So from my albeit limited knowledge there seems to be multiple realms. The upside down was created on Nov 6 1983 by El like you said. Or she at least opened it. Then Henry creel was sent to Dimension X by El.

I had thought they were the same place but I guess now I'm learning they are different places.

Like many here, I have not seen the Broadway play, but it seems that when Henry became 001 with Dr. Brenner, he spent a short time in Dimension X looking for Dr. Brenner's father and that is when he encountered the "first shadow" (which I think we are led to believe is the Mind Flayer). In this encounter, Henry was physically changed, including his blood. Once he returned to "our world", he developed these powers. Dr. Brenner's experiments then shifted to the other kids who were literally injected with 001's blood. Conversely, the Mind Flayer already existed long before it's encounter with Henry but it was Henry, once banished to X by Eleven, that gave the shadow its shape, which we see in the later seasons. All the time that Henry spent in X eventually led him to become Vecna.

The Upside Down is a decaying version of Hawkins that is frozen in Nov 6, 1983. How Vecna gained access to here, that I haven't quite figured out?

So the mind flayer controls Henry right? Or Henry has an allegiance to the Mind Flayer and can still make his own decisions. I'm still confused as to what Henry's end goal is.

Or is Henry controlling the Flayer?

YNWA.2013 said:

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Like many here, I have not seen the Broadway play, but it seems that when Henry became 001 with Dr. Brenner, he spent a short time in Dimension X looking for Dr. Brenner's father and that is when he encountered the "first shadow" (which I think we are led to believe is the Mind Flayer). In this encounter, Henry was physically changed, including his blood. Once he returned to "our world", he developed these powers. Dr. Brenner's experiments then shifted to the other kids who were literally injected with 001's blood. Conversely, the Mind Flayer already existed long before it's encounter with Henry but it was Henry, once banished to X by Eleven, that gave the shadow its shape, which we see in the later seasons. All the time that Henry spent in X eventually led him to become Vecna.

The Upside Down is a decaying version of Hawkins that is frozen in Nov 6, 1983. How Vecna gained access to here, that I haven't quite figured out?

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I'm not doubting you on the veracity of any of that, but holy cow where did all that come from?! This broadway play that i'm just now hearing of? If so, and that's the only place all of that information has been relayed, then that's stupid and doing a disservice to their audience.

I think the backstory from the play is going to be pretty important. And, I had never heard of it till references to it in some of the recap videos

Yeah apparently there is a broadway play Stranger Things: The first shadow. Or something. It explains how Henry Creel somehow visits dimension X when he was young and interacts with the Mind Flayer particles and when he returns to this dimension he has powers.

It's weird and kind of confuses the story line a bit with information that people who don't watch the show would never know about.

I was looking into this after my most recent response above

I think this is what will be answered in the 2nd half of S5. Is Vecna the real big bad or is the Mind Flayer really the one pulling the strings?

If they don't go into this stuff in the final four episodes, and they restrict it to just the broadway play, that's gonna be extremely frustrating. Leading up to this latest season the wife and I rewatched all four previous seasons, and my biggest question has been the connection between Vecna and the mind flayer.

i just read the synopsis of the play on Wikipedia and unfortunately I think I just spoiled the **** out of the 2nd half out the show for myself. I'm not going to post what I read here,

It looks like they are going to use part of the play in the show that lines up with Vecna refusing to enter the cave as Max tells Holly. It ties directly into something in the plot of the play. It also raises question on whether or not Vecna serves the Flayer or vice veras.

here's the synopsis but it feels very spoilery, so buyer beware

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stranger_Things:_The_First_Shadow

Not true, Eleven was in the upside down at the end of S1, although for just a few minutes. She immediately steps out of the portal back into the school at the top of S2.

But I was actually just thinking about this yesterday. Max has never been physically in the upside down.

Mike was only in there for a few minutes too when they were in the tunnels in S2.

I believe the same is true of Lucas.

Couple other random things I thought about...

Until this season, Will and Steve had never directly interacted with each other, nor had Eleven and Steve. (Not 100% on the latter.)

So all of VH1's (new nickname I heard for Henry / Vecna / 1, which I love) victims in S4 were never actually in the upside down. Their physical bodies were in the real world, and they were brought into VH1's mind lair when he was ready to kill them.

The place where Holly is might be the same thing, or something similar. But it definitely isn't a physical place.

Do I read it to better understand what is happening or does it just give away what is likely to happen?

YNWA.2013 said:

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Do I read it to better understand what is happening or does it just give away what is likely to happen?

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I think it's going to give away a critical plot point about Henry's past that will likely be shown as a flashback in the next 3 episodes. SEveral of the actors have alluded to "Henry's journey" being the most significant, so I suspect they're just going to recreate it on film.

The thing that bugs me is the retconning of Henry's age. He clearly couldn't have been in high school with Joyce and Hopper given what we learned in S4. He was 12 when he first killed his family.

Nevermind the fact that Joyce makes zero indication of knowing who Henry Creel is.

I hope they didn't bend over backwards to shoehorn in whatever plot points they're taking from the play.

As someone who HATES plays....if I have to watch a play just to understand the backstory of one of my favorite shows of all time I'm gonna be P|$$d!

Brian Earl Spilner said:

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The thing that bugs me is the retconning of Henry's age. He clearly couldn't have been in high school with Joyce and Hopper given what we learned in S4. He was 12 when he first killed his family.

Nevermind the fact that Joyce makes zero indication of knowing who Henry Creel is.

I hope they didn't bend over backwards to shoehorn in whatever plot points they're taking from the play.

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Edit....maybe the timeline works? At first I thought "no", but it could?

Flashback is to highschool in 1959. Let's say Joyce is 16, she has Jonathan at 24, Jonathan is about 16 in season 1. That would be 1983.

It's possible that the play included kids from all grades (Hawkens doesn't seem very big). If he was twelve when he was in the play would that work for the age gap? I don't know, I don't get too much into the weeds on most shows, just spit balling.

Also, did anyone notice that dip**** Derrick at one time was looking at cube that represents the 4th dimension? A cube inside of a cube. I thought that was interesting.

DargelSkout said:

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It's possible that the play included kids from all grades (Hawkens doesn't seem very big). If he was twelve when he was in the play would that work for the age gap? I don't know, I don't get too much into the weeds on most shows, just spit balling.

Also, did anyone notice that dip**** Derrick at one time was looking at cube that represents the 4th dimension? A cube inside of a cube. I thought that was interesting.

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I don't recall. Was it definitely highschool? Could it have been junior high? That would still work on both Joyce age and Henry age.

If Joyce was 12 in 1959, she has Jonathan at 20 years old, Jonathan is around 16 in season 1. That would line up to 1983.