These chip plants take a ton of water. Not enough goes into Gibbons. You can say cooling water all you want, but the amount they use is just too much.

Nothing has been announced yet. Gibbons creek and I think 4 other sites are in the running

normaleagle05 said:

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Seems like conjecture. I haven't seen any estimates of what Terafab is likely to consume, let allow a comparison of what flows into Gibbons/who owns those water rights.

Do you have any of that information?

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No idea what they are going to need to use for Terafab, but the current water right for the reservoir is held by Gibbons Tract 1, LP for use of all of the impounded 32,084 acre feet of water in the reservoir for non-consumptive use, and a right to consumptively use up to 9,740 acre feet per year. Looks like they are currently leasing that 9,740 acre feet to Dow Chemical via bed and banks transmission, but I have no doubt they can break that lease if wanted.

oklaunion said:

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I think they could pump in water from the Navasota.

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How about NO!

A few things to keep in mind re: data centers and water.

1) The most expensive ongoing operating cost for the data center is power usage. The amount of power used is almost directly related to the amount of heat generated. The amount of heat will dictate the amount of cooling needed. Over time, a major driver of successful operation of data centers will be how much they can minimize their power usage, and therefore their heat generation and cooling needs. So what we see today for power/heat/water usage per unit of compute is likely to be a worst case that will go down over time. Not all of the data centers being built today will ultimately be economically successful. The ones that are least successful at minimizing their power usage will likely be the first to fail economically.

2) There are other ways to do cooling besides just consumptively using fresh water. At some point, if they want a data center (or fab) in a specific location for other reasons, even if there is not economically feasible supplies of fresh water, there are still other options for cooling that can be used to make the location work. Again, minimizing the power usage will minimize the heat, which will minimize the cooling needs.

Most but not all and there aren't any requirements forcing them to go closed loop.

Again, what I am told, they have been in search and testing for 12 years on cooling. They have some pretty interesting claims from back in 2016 that I would call groundbreaking with some sort of gel. But why is it not being used and we still are using all the water. Kind of where I talk about the half truths and what can you believe. I'm thinking they 1. Have to provide their own power. 2. Be on the coastline and use desalinated water.

oklaunion said:

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Why would it be any different than what TMPA did with the water? Suck it in to cool the heat-generating parts, discharge it into the lake on one end and suck up cooler water to complete the process.

I used to hunt within 3 miles of the TMPA electricity generating plant. It was not quiet. We could hear the roar at all times. I used to watch which way the smoke/vapor out of the towers was blowing so I could pick my hunting stand before arriving on our place outside of 244. The loudspeakers were also heard 3+ miles away. It was never quiet.

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The big difference of course is this would provide billions more to the local economy.

We are turning Earth into Coruscant.

Sooooooo..... if data centers require soooo much power and soooo much water....then they should have to have their own power generation and water source. Being the power grid is already marginal and water sources are so so sensitive to communities these two seem to be the major major hurdles to construction. So couple thoughts on how to make these road blocks into benefits.

Couple scenarios:
1- If you have to build a power plant anyway....build an entire city. Base the entire power consumption on 12v. Every roof has photovoltaic. Every car is electric. Data center served by the power. The pv and battery storage in the cars acts as the stable power grid. Sell the homes as the whole package of comes with an electric car or two and noone gets an electricity bill ever. Nice big lake all the way around for intake and output water. Tech goobers would buy in to all of it so make it all the tech value add they like....12v low voltage wiring and power system are cheap. Everything built for DC power. Dont even need a licensed electrician for the wiring and build.

2-Geothermal power is the among the cheapest power on earth. Thats why huge electrical draw operations are in Iceland for example. Aluminum recycling for example takes a huge amount of electricity so barges from all over the world sail to Iceland for that process...... use the data center similarly as a thermal power plant. Build it on a glacier....use the heat to melt ice for cooling and water make up....and use the heat for thermal power generation for whatever process makes sense....heating buildings or a heat intense process like a forge or whatever high heat melting process.

3-Isnt some of this handled by satellites? How much of a data center has to be manned? So just make a PV powered data center satellite and launch that thing. However many times they are needed. Infinite power and cooling. Most will say too expensive. Well 3/4 of the cost of ownership of a building comes AFTER construction is complete. This would front load those costs and have very little post construction cost. And no local opposition to construction as they as they are seeing now.

Just seems to me if you could make these big roadblocks and opposition to construction a benefit then they would be supported instead of delaying construction and massive local opposition. What do I know.... im just a simple dock rat boat captain....

I am working on one data center where they're building a solar farm next to it. It will supply power to the data center and then sell the excess back to the grid

Badace52 said:

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Chip factories are one thing, but we don't have the water resources for these data centers in texas. Most of south Texas is in a water emergency the city of Corpus is assessing heavy fines for people who use more than 40% of what they consider to be the "normal" monthly water usage for that area. Rockport and Port A are in the same boat.

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Is this a proof reading problem? There is no way this is accurate.

highvelocity said:

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I am working on one data center where they're building a solar farm next to it. It will supply power to the data center and then sell the excess back to the grid

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Does this include govt subsidies?
And the power sold back to the grid is sold at what value?...basically sold back at whatever cost the grid can generate power for (NOT what they sell it to us for)? Or?

I was hoping for sultions to take up less productive footprint not add dead acreage in otherwise healthy landscape.

Agree, most likely a net negative in total BUT middle of summer hot days may keep grid from larger issues

solar don't work at night

normaleagle05 said:

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Badace52 said:

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Chip factories are one thing, but we don't have the water resources for these data centers in texas. Most of south Texas is in a water emergency the city of Corpus is assessing heavy fines for people who use more than 40% of what they consider to be the "normal" monthly water usage for that area. Rockport and Port A are in the same boat.

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Is this a proof reading problem? There is no way this is accurate.

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Probably correct. The lakes that supply Corpus water are combined around 10%.
Then there's the pipelines to lake Texans and I think the Colorado River. But it is BAD down there. Beeville is also FINALLY drilling a new water well for RO (they voted an RO plant down about 10 yrs ago) to reduce their dependency on Lake Mathis

stevopike said:

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solar don't work at night

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Really? You don't say.

I'm of a mind to utilize any and all power sources possible. Solar can definitely help and so can wind but we seem hell bent as a society on NOT doing everything possible and using every possible means to be more efficient. Solar can still work during the day, take stress off the grid, and reserve other energy sources for when it's dark.

Like seeing all these solar "farms" on smaller scales in other countries where the solar panels are installed above parking lots which effectively make covered parking while utilizing large open spaces that are already paved over rather than converting farm land or forests.

Wind is a different animal and frankly seems the least efficient in terms of space required to generate power and worst on the impact of the landscape.

And people flip out over nuclear but if you're not pushing for more nuclear power then you're not serious about the US being wholly self-sufficient in energy production nor are you serious about addressing potential environmental impacts.

I've already hit on how government screws things up but these data centers and chip facilities would be far better off if they were located in redeveloped buildings in urban(ish) areas. In the Houston area for example, why the hell hasn't someplace like Gunspoint Mall been turned into a huge data center? It's already plugged into all the utilities it could need and those places have lots of security- they'd help clean up a major blight on the area. In fact, in much of the US malls are dying and represent ideal redevelopment plays for data centers and so forth.

Badace52 said:

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Chip factories are one thing, but we don't have the water resources for these data centers in texas. Most of south Texas is in a water emergency the city of Corpus is assessing heavy fines for people who use more than 40% of what they consider to be the "normal" monthly water usage for that area. Rockport and Port A are in the same boat.

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Move it down to 20% and double that fine.

But either way, this is BEAUTIFUL! I love it. Wish they would do this in all major cities. If your grass is dead because it won't live without an irrigation system, you have the wrong grass for your location.

There is a public meeting June 3rd at 9am --Grimes County Courthouse - Commissioners Court - in Anderson.

Something this big should be scheduled outside of the normal 8 to 5 so the most amount of people can attend without disturbing their workday.

Link: Space X Meeting Grimes County - June 3

I have been following this. I am in College Station and not 100% sure how I feel about this. I am also at the age that by the time its built and running I may be retirement age. That will force the cost of everything to shoot way up and kill the purchasing power of my savings and pension. I may have to be like the Californians who sell their expensive house and move somewhere cheaper for a house half the price.

Elon has a lot of integrated businesses that can complement this thing. The one nobody really mentions is the Tesla Megapack. These are giant commercial battery packs that can store and deliver megawatts of power. Being an old power plant means distribution lines are there and it wouldn't be too hard to add a substation. those Megapack batteries could charge up during lower demand and help curb usage from the grid during peak demand.

Als the X factor of why I think it we will get it - Grimes is the name of the the baby momma of like three of his kids. She gets her own county. -- i know that's dumb.

The real X-Factor I believe the the inexperience of Grimes County official in negotiation a giant dela like this. Its not their fault but making sure they get it right is their problem.

I have worked in water treatment for quite a while. In that time I have looked over the treatment of several data centers dating back 15 years.

The water is used for cooling. It is far superior to use a water cooled system to air as water is a substantially better at absorbing heat. One of the ones I treated stored all the data for a giant O&G company. The server room was 40 degrees. If they lost water cooling, the room would heat to 120 degrees in 4 minutes and fry their servers and destroying their data for all drilling operations across the world.

Nothing I worked on was remotely as large or water intensive the ones we are building now. I do not see how we will be able to sustain the water usage unless we go away from more efficient evaporative cooling and build larger air cooled systems with closed water and refrigerant loops. This would help keep the water in a chilled loop like a DX unit. They are less efficient than a cooling tower but use substantially less water. If we go the cooling tower and chiller route for the cooling water, I think we need to build desalination plants and pull from the ocean. Texas does not have enough ground or surface water to satisfy what we are wanting to build, especially west of us. Desal plants are inefficient and expensive, but would save water.

Eventually I could see these types of data centers having their own water desal, cooling and wastewater plants that service that facility specifically. From there it would be interesting to see what they do with the highly salinated reject water as it could cause some issues. Probably inject it into SWD wells, like they do in O&G.

Sorry my rambling, but that's how my brain works, and I could be completely wrong. But note that Elons place is not this, but will probably still use a lot of cooling water for their systems. I just worry about land cost increasing in BCS because of it. Wish I owned a lot of land here. Look what it did in Taylor.

JeremiahJohnson said:

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I have worked in water treatment for quite a while. In that time I have looked over the treatment of several data centers dating back 15 years.

The water is used for cooling. It is far superior to use a water cooled system to air as water is a substantially better at absorbing heat. One of the ones I treated stored all the data for a giant O&G company. The server room was 40 degrees. If they lost water cooling, the room would heat to 120 degrees in 4 minutes and fry their servers and destroying their data for all drilling operations across the world.

Nothing I worked on was remotely as large or water intensive the ones we are building now. I do not see how we will be able to sustain the water usage unless we go away from more efficient evaporative cooling and build larger air cooled systems with closed water and refrigerant loops. This would help keep the water in a chilled loop like a DX unit. They are less efficient than a cooling tower but use substantially less water. If we go the cooling tower and chiller route for the cooling water, I think we need to build desalination plants and pull from the ocean. Texas does not have enough ground or surface water to satisfy what we are wanting to build, especially west of us. Desal plants are inefficient and expensive, but would save water.

Eventually I could see these types of data centers having their own water desal, cooling and wastewater plants that service that facility specifically. From there it would be interesting to see what they do with the highly salinated reject water as it could cause some issues. Probably inject it into SWD wells, like they do in O&G.

Sorry my rambling, but that's how my brain works, and I could be completely wrong. But note that Elons place is not this, but will probably still use a lot of cooling water for their systems. I just worry about land cost increasing in BCS because of it. Wish I owned a lot of land here. Look what it did in Taylor.

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We have plenty of brackish groundwater that is easier to desal than seawater. Particularly out west, using desalinated brackish groundwater and deep injecting the brine will likely be part of providing the necessary water for the data centers they want to build. As we get to next generation modular molten salt reactor nuke plants in the coming decade, power issues will become nearly a non-issue was well.

Yeah... I assumed as much, not my area. I had not really looked into it enough to speak on it.