Dude, I've very clearly defined these terms from my point of view, the Apostolic, with reasons and verses and arguments, directly responding to the title of this thread.

- Jewish
- Israel
- Semitic and anti-

Feel free to actually join, perhaps also clearly doing so, and if not, be well.

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address the issue of required to be in Jesus for salvation.

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Logos of John 1 that appeared to us as Jesus Christ is dynamic, moves in history, a personal Spirit, and has appeared in many times and places, including the Old Testament.

Hominids have been around for a very long time and Homo sapiens appeared roughly 300,000 years ago. Many types of revelation.

God has and does reveal Himself mundane and astounding ways, including to many Muslims in dreams (check out the testimonies).

I'm not saying one MUST pray "sinner's prayer" and neither does any holy text.

Point is the earnest seeker of God will find, in his or her life, the God of St. John when he addressed the Greeks - who understood and mass converted in a short time frame.

Therefore, a belief system whose foundation is an EXPLICIT rejection of this Logos (Reason, Order, a personal Spirit) is inherently Satanic.

Redstone said:

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Time is limited, thank you for responses. About this:

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Regarding the Jews who converted to Christianity, many who considered themselves Christians have converted to Judaism as well. It is not proof of anything.

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When a person of Christian baptism - such as Ivanka Trump - converts, does that process include a formal and explicit rejection of this baptism?

No

What does beit din approval require here? Any similarities to Oswald Rufeisen, who tried and failed to return to the nation-state Israel? That's why I bring these names up.

It's not just illustrative, it tells us something essential…what Judaism post-70 IS.

Many Orthodox Jews view Christianity as non-monotheistic. For them, rejecting Judaism for a monotheistic faith such as Islam, or a non-theistic belief is much less problematic. You keep cherry-picking individual cases and then making sweeping claims about Jewish theology. Meanwhile, I've never once seen you actually engage with Jewish thought. You just pronounce what you believe to be true with an air of impressive ignorance.

ie one of the most prominent and influential Jews of the 20th Century, for many decades, whose identity was essential to his life and work according to him, Norman Lear…..died NOT a Jew. How exactly does that work?

It works by the Holy Cross, the dividing line of all the world.

You are the only person here who thinks a demented lifelong agnostic Norman Lear maybe converting (no source actually provides evidence, which seems to be your modus operandi) is somehow a major event.

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Redstone said:

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Madeline Lear converted while attending Harvard, and her father converted to Catholicism in 2022 at the age of 100. (Source: those around him who wee there and he gave permission to "leak," feel free to not believe it, that's fine).

You are correct he was, in his own words, a "cultural Jew" and agnostic for much of his life. THIS IS THE POINT AND WHY IT MATTERS FOR POSTING HERE.

A man who very strongly identified as Jewish didn't connect it to God (like many of founding mothers and fathers of nation-state Israel btw, and Freud also)

So, Jewish mean religion? It can, of course.
Ethnic? Sure, shared characteristic. Now what exactly is the MOST COMMON such shared characteristic? And why can one be a Jewish Buddhist, for example, yet Messianic Jews are …. Christians?

Such high-profile examples tell us very important things. Ivanka's conversion also - you should definitely research that, and her rabbi at the time, some more.

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Your "point" is bull***** The common shared characteristic of the Jewish people is that they are Jewish. Jews are an ethnoreligion. You can deny that all you want, but that's what Jews are. Christianity has absolutely nothing to do with that definition. And a handful of converts means nothing to the strength of Judaism as a faith or a people. Unless you want to argue that Christianity is weak given how many millions in previously Christian countries no longer identify as Christians?

Totally nonsensical. Let's unpack it.

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The common shared characteristic of the Jewish people is that they are Jewish.

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Circular and content free. It CAN be many things, which I've not only acknowledged but detailed. If you say it's X or Y, I accept it. You know more, I'm sure, about a "positive" definition, just as an Orthodox rabbi could fill books about what it is. (I was especially interested to hear a rabbi detail Kabbalah on Jimmy Akin, Mysterious World).

But, I keep coming around to the best definition of this large, diverse umbrella term being "The Nazarene is not the Messiah" because ….

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Jews are an ethnoreligion

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1.) what is the primary shared characteristic, in a non circular definition? Judaism have any POSITIVE and concise affirmation, such as our Nicene Creed?

2). the religion portion here. I fully acknowledge it exists. AND YET, how to account for the great number of atheists who did and do VERY STRONGLY identify as "Jewish?" Including some of the most well known Jews of all time?

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But, I keep coming around to the best definition of this large, diverse umbrella term being "The Nazarene is not the Messiah" because ….

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You keep coming to this because you HAVE to believe this. You are simply incapable of believing Jews have a vibrant faith and community without Jesus. You could look at the 13 Principles of Maimonides or any quick overview of Jewish theology. You could understand the scale and sweep of Jewish history during which many Jews had far more contact with Islam and other faiths than Christians. But no. You can only imagine a world in which Jews are Satanists whose faith only exists to resist Jesus. **** off.

What is the simply stated main characteristic of post-70 Judaism, articulated in a non-circular definition (asked because of your very circular definition)

Does Judaism have a concise affirmation, such as our Nicene Creed?

Maimonides commentary on the Mishnah very much believes in God, especially in the first 5 principle statements.

I certainly acknowledge this, as stated above. And, as asked above, how odd this co-exists with the undeniable points about atheism (just ask if you want a list, it would be a very long one)

Redstone said:

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Does Judaism have a concise affirmation, such as our Nicene Creed?

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I would consider the 10 commandments a creed and it actually came from God.

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1) I am the Lord thy god, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
2) Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.
3) Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
4) Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.
5) Honor thy father and thy mother.
6) Thou shalt not murder.
7) Thou shalt not commit adultery.
8) Thou shalt not steal.
9) Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
10) Thou shalt not covet anything that belongs to thy neighbor.

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Very prominent Rabbi, Lord Jonathan Sacks, called the Commandments "the basis of Jewish ethics." And then the Talmud details why the Ten Commandments are not recited daily in the synagogue because to emphasize them suggests other mitzvot are less important, correct? Seems very different from the foundational Nicene Creed.

And what about the many atheists that very strongly identified as Jewish? Examples include: Chomsky, Freud, Einstein, Philip Roth and Saul Bellow, Woody Allen and Sarah Silverman, Emma Goldman, literally almost all the founding mothers and fathers of nation-state Israel…..

So the 10 Commandments really works here? How?

First, I said about practicing Jews. You are lumping ethnicity into this. Distinctly different. It's like saying why prominent pastors/priests children don't practice Christianity.

Again, not every Christian agrees wholeheartedly with the Nicene Creed.

Reciting something and saying it is more like a basis of one's faith aren't the same. Christians don't go around reciting the Creed. The argument proposed isn't an argument...it's apples and oranges.

Jewish is both an ethnicity and a religion. This isn't a hard concept.

Less than 1% of Christians could state the creed today, so let's get off the notion that it is such a strong basis.


Very complex statement below...what are you saying.

"The Nazarene is not the Messiah" as the BEST DEFINITION for this large, diverse umbrella term, post-70, has significant explanatory power BECAUSE it directly answers such quandaries, and provides much needed clarity about (IMO) terms that are far too often intentionally weaponized (mainly, "anti-Semitic")

I'll return to your question when there is more time, but…

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Less than 1% of Christians could state the creed today, so let's get off the notion that it is such a strong basis

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flat out false. Even assuming that ALL just say it without care….

STILL A CLEARLY STATED POSITIVE DEFINITION OF A LARGE AND COMPLEX TERM, CHRISTIAN

that's the entire point here.

Does the term Jewish have this?

Redstone said:

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I'll return to your question when there is more time, but…

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Less than 1% of Christians could state the creed today, so let's get off the notion that it is such a strong basis

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flat out false. Even assuming that ALL just say it without care….

STILL A CLEARLY STATED POSITIVE DEFINITION OF A LARGE AND COMPLEX TERM, CHRISTIAN

that's the entire point here.

Does the term Jewish have this?

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The term Jewish? What does that mean.

I have already told you, but you didn't accept it. The whole Torah can be condensed into the 10 commandments. It is the basis of the faith.

The Nicene Creed is regurgitated within the Catholic/Orthodox church. That doesn't mean one knows it or could come up with it no their own. Many protestant churches generally do not state it or any reoccurring affirmations during service. Many protestants don't even consider Catholic's christians. I am not here to debate who is a christian or not. It is just a fact. Judaism when it speaks of Christians is mainly pointing to Catholocism/Orthodoxy strangely enough.

Another "creed" as you like to call it could be the Shema.

What is the purpose of defining the creed?

Jewish means
Torah, which can be condensed into the 10 commandments, the basis of the faith

implying that Jewish is a faith

Is that accurate? If so, we are finally getting somewhere.

(If you were to ask what Christianity is, it is fair to point to the Nicene Creed)

Let me know. Because there's definitely some large questions after this if I've summarized your position correctly.

Redstone said:

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Jewish means
Torah, which can be condensed into the 10 commandments, the basis of the faith

implying that Jewish is a faith

Is that accurate? If so, we are finally getting somewhere.

(If you were to ask what Christianity is, it is fair to point to the Nicene Creed)

Let me know. Because there's definitely some large questions after this if I've summarized your position correctly.

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You are trying to put me in the corner, for what reason I don't know. Why don't you come out with what you are truly getting at, b/c hiding behind all this is pretty bush league.

Judaism is a faith system. Being Jewish is an ethnicity.

I'm literally asking for clarity and non-circular definitions.

Over these pages, I've clearly defined these, according to my worldview, Apostolic (Catholic / Orthodox):

- Jewish and Judaism
- Christianity
- Israel (Biblical and secular use)
- Semitic and anti-
- race, ethnicity, religion

Such definitions are exactly the point of this thread, and quite relevant given discussions in the wake of Kirk's murder.

The obvious fact that clear definitions have not appeared on the other "side" of this discussion tells us important things, to return to a point from earlier today. "Unclear" terms can be weaponized, as I very much believe "anti-Semitic" has.

you didn't define all those. You may have asked about many of them, but you haven't defined them.

Yes, it's all contained in this thread. If you think not, then ask and I'm happy to plagiarize myself.

Clarity is essential when discussing heated topics such as these.

Redstone said:

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Yes, it's all contained in this thread. If you think not, then ask and I'm happy to plagiarize myself.

Clarity is essential when discussing heated topics such as these.

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I'm not here to play games, but it seems like you are. If you wan to sound a like a jerk, you are being quite successful. Yes, clarity is important, but it's coming across more like games.

You are on a thread about defining terms, I do it, ask for you to do it, repeatedly, this doesn't happen, and I'm playing games.

Sure dude. Be well.

You have asked about creed..that isn't defining terms. I have stated several times there is a difference between ethnicity and religion, but you haven't wanted to accept it.

Yes, you have come across as if you are playing games rather than wanting a discussion. It shouldn't take 6 pages to define terms.

No problem, let's directly address your distinction.

IMO, Christianity is best defined by the Nicene Creed, especially when backed by actions it wants for followers, such as Trinitarian baptism. THIS IS A POSITIVE DEFINITION. IT IS SOMETHING.

Ethnicity - shared characteristics, such as religion, and race (biological, extended family partly in-bred, relatively isolated over time, develops genetic markers). NOT THE SAME AS RACE

Religion - belief about deity

70 AD was a massive and radical break, a reinvention by grave necessity for Judaism and the Jewish people.

After this, THE BEST unifying characteristic for this large and diverse term is "The Nazarene is not the Messiah."

CAN it be a race, a religion, an ethnic identity? Of course. You mention Torah, or something else, I accept it.

AND YET - many Jewish atheists, even Buddhists, ect. and so I return to the "negative" unifying characteristic, since 70 when Titus decimated the Temple.

That is a summary. No games.

Now: what is the POSITIVE definition? Anything like the Nicene Creed? No games.

Positive definition of what? Judaism? One could say the Shema - Hear, O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One. One could say the 2 commandments or the 10. Ultimately, it is about returning to God, which is what all the commandments are about, ways to transcend.

Redstone said:

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What is the simply stated main characteristic of post-70 Judaism, articulated in a non-circular definition (asked because of your very circular definition)

Does Judaism have a concise affirmation, such as our Nicene Creed?

Maimonides commentary on the Mishnah very much believes in God, especially in the first 5 principle statements.

I certainly acknowledge this, as stated above. And, as asked above, how odd this co-exists with the undeniable points about atheism (just ask if you want a list, it would be a very long one)

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Ethnoreligion seems entirely beyond your grasp. Jews are a people who are also tied by a faith that frames much of the community. They can be separated but are also not inseparable. It's an ancient concept and you seem incapable of the nuance involved. All of your definitions are intended to be as self serving as possible.

Care to try again?

I assume you're aware that a circular definition is wholly content-free. Go back and review: or would "happiness" be best defined as "the state of being happy?"

What is the POSITIVE DEFINITION OF

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a faith that frames much of the community.

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I understand the concept. WHAT IS THE CONTENT? Our Christian "content" can be summed up by the Nicene Creed and Trinitarian baptism.

Can you actually answer this? And if not (I'm rather skeptical), then perhaps you can begin to understand why "The Nazarene is not the Messiah" has such explanatory power.

Redstone said:

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Care to try again?

I assume you're aware that a circular definition is wholly content-free. Go back and review: or would "happiness" be best defined as "the state of being happy?"

What is the POSITIVE DEFINITION OF

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a faith that frames much of the community.

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I understand the concept. WHAT IS THE CONTENT? Our Christian "content" can be summed up by the Nicene Creed and Trinitarian baptism.

Can you actually answer this? And if not (I'm rather skeptical), then perhaps you can begin to understand why "The Nazarene is not the Messiah" has such explanatory power.

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I already have. And no, your bull**** has no explanatory power. It's just you desperately trying to center Jesus in a faith that uses the texts you claim predicts Jesus while having zero interest in him.

2 days ago, you said:

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The common shared characteristic of the Jewish people is that they are Jewish.

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I suppose that is a type of answer, in that you typed something.

Related:

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in a faith

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You seem capable of actually detailing this faith, so why hasn't this occurred? Is it perhaps the inherent difficulty of doing so, for reasons very evident across these pages?

If the many famous atheist Jews are Jews, as are orthodox rabbis with a clear conception of God, as are adherents of Kabbalah, as is a reform synagogue attendee agnostic, as are Karaites that follow Torah only, as are Buddhist Jews also Jews (yes, strange but true)….

Then WHAT DOES THIS LARGE, DIVERSE TERM actually mean? What is the content?

And why does this specific definition (will we actually get one?) have more explanatory, definitional power than "the Nazarene is not the Messiah?"

Redstone said:

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If the many famous atheist Jews are Jews, as are orthodox rabbis with a clear conception of God, as are adherents of Kabbalah, as is a reform synagogue attendee agnostic, as are Karaites that follow Torah only, as are Buddhist Jews also Jews (yes, strange but true)….

Then WHAT DOES THIS LARGE, DIVERSE TERM actually mean? What is the content?

And why does this specific definition (will we actually get one?) have more explanatory, definitional power than "the Nazarene is not the Messiah?"

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Because Judaism is an ethnoreligion. It is a people tied by blood and culture structured around the religion, both as a religion and a cultural institution. I'm sorry this is so freaking hard for you. Not everything fits into neat high school debate definitions. And if you're going to insist on this idiotic definition of yours, you have to change it to say "no one who has existed to date is the messiah." Jesus has nothing to do with Judaism. He isn't discussed and he isn't important in Jewish thought. Same with Muhammad. However, Christianity and Islam are important in the ways they have influenced the diaspora and the violence against Jews over the centuries.

Of course it's freaking hard.

You are wholly incapable of providing an explanation. What you write on the question of "what is Judaism" is content-free and circular. Look at your quote I highlighted. It is exactly the same "content" as your little paragraph there.

Let's try again. This is not difficult, or it shouldn't be.

What is Christianity, despite its many disagreements and in-fighting?
- This can be fairly summarized as the Nicene Creed and Trinitarian baptism. Jesus Christ, the Messiah, fully God and fully man, is worshipped.

What is Judaism, despite its many disagreements and in-fighting?
- (Waiting, circular definition is inane and repetitive)

It definitely seems like the reason WHY the large, difficult, diverse term "Jewish" is so "reactive" to Christianity (meaning, a "Jewish Christian" is a Christian, while a "Jewish Buddhist" is Jewish and a Jewish atheist is Jewish, and a Jewish, God-fearing rabbi is Jewish) is because …..

That hugely violent break from 33 to 70 was so titanic.

Maybe this time you can give us an actual answer?

Redstone said:

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Of course it's freaking hard.

You are wholly incapable of providing an explanation. What you write on the question of "what is Judaism" is content-free and circular. Look at your quote I highlighted. It is exactly the same "content" as your little paragraph there.

Let's try again. This is not difficult, or it shouldn't be.

What is Christianity, despite its many disagreements and in-fighting?
- This can be fairly summarized as the Nicene Creed and Trinitarian baptism. Jesus Christ, the Messiah, fully God and fully man, is worshipped.

What is Judaism, despite its many disagreements and in-fighting?
- (Waiting, circular definition is inane and repetitive)

It definitely seems like the reason WHY the large, difficult, diverse term "Jewish" is so "reactive" to Christianity (meaning, a "Jewish Christian" is a Christian, while a "Jewish Buddhist" is Jewish and a Jewish atheist is Jewish, and a Jewish, God-fearing rabbi is Jewish) is because …..

That hugely violent break from 33 to 70 was so titanic.

Maybe this time you can give us an actual answer?

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I've already given an answer. Multiple answers. How hard is this for you? Judaism is not solely a religion. Christianity is. Christianity can be defined in purely religious terms around belief. Judaism is a religion and a people. Both. Together and yet separate, but intimately tied in culture. So yeah, an atheist who comes from a Jewish family is a Jew. Always has been and always will be. There are communal boundaries around Jewish personhood, many of those boundaries are tied into the faith. The most important is that one does not embrace polytheism or attack the Jewish people. Traditionally, Jews view Christianity as polytheism. Buddhism as a philosophy is not, but if a Jew embraced the full Tibetan Buddhist religion, they'd also be separated from the Jewish people. The Jewish religion, separate from the Jewish people (which again, cannot be done), is pretty straightforward. There is one God, he made a covenant with the Jews, and Jews are obligated to follow the rules of that covenant. That's the simplest answer and it's reflected in every branch of Jewish theology and every Jewish community.

Rather a nebulous term, isn't it. Even as "Messianic Jews" are considered by both Jews and Christians to be Christians.