Here is the turn, the origin, of the popular use of "Semite" AWAY FROM ITS CENTURIES LONG USE IN LINGUISTICS

to the nonsense we see now - picked up by Nazis, who agreed with the (radical leftist) Marr that Jews were "racially impure" and now the conflict was Semite - Aryan.

THIS IS WRONG. I am a proud Christian Semite son of Aleppo, whose Semitic language group has a spectacular literary tradition.

Redstone said:

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Here is the turn, the origin, of the popular use of "Semite" AWAY FROM ITS CENTURIES LONG USE IN LINGUISTICS

to the nonsense we see now - picked up by Nazis, who agreed with the (radical leftist) Marr that Jews were "racially impure" and now the conflict was Semite - Aryan.

THIS IS WRONG. I am a proud Christian Semite son of Aleppo, whose Semitic language group has a spectacular literary tradition.

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The Antisemitism Party in late 19th century France wasn't against Syrians, genius. The term means hatred of Jews as well as promulgating conspiracy theories and negative beliefs about Jews and discrimination against Jews. I'm sorry one name for your precious language grouping got used in this way, but that's the term used for over 150 years at this time.

What are you talking about?

I never connected Marr and his movement to any region other than Germany, where he so strongly influenced Nazis and Zionists by turning a linguistic term "racial."

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The term means hatred of Jews as well as promulgating conspiracy theories and negative beliefs about Jews and discrimination against Jews.

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Well, finally. Thank you.

Who defines "hate"? You? The ADL? I believe all Jews - a theological construct younger than Christianity and united in a belief that Jesus Christ is not the Messiah - should convert to Christianity. Is that hate?

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I'm sorry one name for your precious language grouping got used in this way, but that's the term used for over 150 years at this time.

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Yes, the term was re-defined and weaponized. And this has been quite unfortunate, partly seen on this thread.

Should we discuss for how long, and how widespread, was the term Semite used as a linguistic characterization?

And how awful it is the terms "Semite" and "anti-Semite" have been ill-defined and weaponized first by Marr, and then some prominent Zionists (read Ron Unz about close Nazi and Zionist cooperation in the 1930s btw, that's a massive eye-opener), and then by the National Socialists, and now by, well, sadly a lot of folks. What a ridiculous turn.

Edit: check it out, his close reading of Lenni Brenner
https://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-jews-and-nazis

I'm not reading your antisemitic website and Judaism is an ethnoreligion which has been around far, far longer than Christianity. I'm done responding to you. Try reading actual scholars instead of Jew haters.

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Do you understand how demon worship worked pre-Christ? That humans would sacrifice to these gods and receive power and wealth in this world. Demons were happy to turn sacrifices into transactions. Most of Israel was happy to be given access to the sins they wanted to partake in. Solomon himself provided a pagan prayer when dedicating the temple and then during his life put a statue of Apollo outside of it.

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Absolutely fascinating

I think you'd be interested in that history of the 1930s, including the many hundreds of primary documents. It's important but also sadly memory holed.

Would be happy to parse "Ethno religion" with you, assuming you'd do so in good faith with no inane name-calling, and you'd actually define foundational terms.

And I recognize that's improbable. Maybe one day?

At least you did recognize, in one of the linked threads about this topic posted above, what a gigantic and world-historical change 70 AD was, when the Temple was fully razed to the ground, exactly as the Messiah predicted. Now, all that stands is a portion of Mark Antony's headquarters.

dp

Redux:

If Ethno means "shared characteristic" and a shared characteristic is theological ….. let's think about rejection of the Messiah

It would explain how so many atheists, now and historically, could so strongly identify as Jewish - including a great many founders of the nation-state Israel.

But the religion part? How does that work? Obviously Jewish CAN be a religion, but is including religious belief a best definition?

Was Freud Jewish? Was Einstein? Was Ruth Bader Ginsberg? Was David Ben-Gurion Jewish? Moshe Dayan?

How exactly does this work? "Ethno-religion"?

The MAIN unifying characteristic and BEST definition is an insistence that Jesus the Nazarene is not the Christ.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but leaning in so heavily on the work of Ron Unz isn't a great look either for you personally or for the arguments you're attempting to use him to support. The guy is a virulent racist who believes America should be a white ethno-state, and he very clearly has an axe to grind with Jews as he routinely publishes/endorses holocaust denial and blood libel, funds VDARE and helped pay David Irving's legal fees.

It's one thing to be critical of Israel, but Unz falls squarely into the "Hitler had a point" category. He's one of the many people who are only limited in their words and actions towards Jews by modern moral and legal restraints.

Also, it needs to be noted that much of this discussion is just an exercise in semantics. 85-90% of people today who claim ethnic Jewish heritage have clear genetic links to a relatively small region of the levant. Much of the distant history of the Jewish people and the Torah is largely or entirely a fabricated religious narrative, but it is a scientific fact that most people today who call themselves Jews (ethnic or religious) have a shared ethnic heritage. Call them whatever you want but it doesn't change that.

What? He's been explicitly arguing against "white nationalists" for three decades. Maybe search his name and "Hispanic" (he also deserves a lot of credit for colorblind legal changes via his work with Harvard alumni groups)

Look, the point is a bright and curious Jewish guy is following a well worn and SIGNIFICANT path that tells us about DEFINITIONS:

One of Benjamin Freedman, Israel Zolli, Oswald Rufeisen, Norman Lear, and so many others.

Logos or anti-Logos - the central divide of the world

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85-90% of people today who claim ethnic Jewish heritage have clear genetic links to a relatively small region of the levant

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Is this true? What did David Reich of Harvard's genetics lab say about that? Of course there are genetic markers. Self-selecting groups in relative isolation develop them.

But as a best definition? In this particular case, do the markers go further back than medieval times?

Infection_Ag11 said:

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Do you understand how demon worship worked pre-Christ? That humans would sacrifice to these gods and receive power and wealth in this world. Demons were happy to turn sacrifices into transactions. Most of Israel was happy to be given access to the sins they wanted to partake in. Solomon himself provided a pagan prayer when dedicating the temple and then during his life put a statue of Apollo outside of it.

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Absolutely fascinating

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I know you view us like zoo animals, but the spiritual world is real.

I'm just imagining someone in a senior level MEEN class day dreaming about how many children had to be sacrificed to Moloch in 837 BCE to gain one superpower. Like what's the child sacrifice to telepathy acquisition ratio.

Love you boo

Infection_Ag11 said:

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I'm just imagining someone in a senior level MEEN class day dreaming about how many children had to be sacrificed to Moloch in 837 BCE to gain one superpower. Like what's the child sacrifice to telepathy acquisition ratio.

Love you boo

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I mean, how deep do you want to go? Do you want me to send you videos from former 'high priest' satanists turned christian explaining how sacrifices work even to this day? Satan hates mankind, he wants to destroy man because he can't destroy God. Modern satanist sacrifices are usually abortions in exchange for some material ask. A Minnesota satanist group tried to appeal that abortions were part of their religion and protected after Roe vs. Wade was overturned.

This is very similar to how it worked with canaanites. This is why God judged them with Israel to stop the abominations. They were performing child sacrifice in exchange for material goods of wealth, crops, fertility, winning wars.

Minor sidepoint: This was the only group God called Israel to go to war with. And the Israelites were to give the Canaanites the chance to either A) stop the practice of child sacrifice and repent from the culture that performed these things (i.e. become like how Israel was supposed to be) or B) receive the sword. Everywhere else Israel was to make peace in the land, not build up an army, and not make protection deals with their more powerful neighbors (egypt).

I would not recommend getting sucked into it if you aren't a christian though (barely recommend it if you are). Demons are real, they will afflict you, and this kind of stuff gets their attention. You are not a christian, you have no protection from them. One of the catholic priests who is an exorcists talks about an exorcism where the guy had youtubed how to open your third eye, and he did it, felt the demons come in, and they quickly destroyed his life.

But usually to shake atheists it takes a bit of slide into the left hand of God. God doesn't appear to reveal the supernatural to us when we ask, he's not an IT ticket help desk. But demons do, and you're playing with fire to be able to witness the supernatural.

I PROMISE I will not be googling how to access my third eye.

Priest account of exorcisms he's done:


Former satanist turned catholic account of how the world of satanism works:


Here's a secular academic book that explores out of body experiences with near death experiences: The Self Does Not Die. I have read it, its a great book.
https://a.co/d/3Nvh275

And an orthodox saint's account of an exorcism. You fight demons not by facing the demon, but by drawing closer to Christ.


As a sidenote, I view the catholic church as outside The Church as any good orthodox would. But there is clearly some ability here to drive out demons through their prayer and fasting. I make no theological claims about church unity through this. That satanist video has wicked stuff in it, don't dwell on it. I personally think the main guy does a bit. Even though its in context of look what Christ redeemed, its still a hook demons use to draw others in. Through his testimony he shares salacious details that pique interest. Its the bargain demons provide - listen here and peak behind the veil. There's a reason why most testimonies tell you to skip the bad stuff and get to the conversion and things Christ has done in your life. But you're an atheist, hiding these accounts just keeps you chugging along thinking none of it exists.

Infection_Ag11 said:

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I PROMISE I will not be googling how to access my third eye.

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Ironically, if you truly were an atheist, doing all sorts of rituals with the intention of doing them earnestly and correctly would be something you'd have no problem doing to taunt demons. 'See they don't exist.'

But you know that on the off chance that demons do exist - you shouldn't be doing these things. So you correctly avoid this tail risk you are adamant doesn't exist.

I agree with Michael Davis of https://yankeeathonite.substack.com (convert to Orthodox)

That Catholic and Orthodox should be united, its truly tragic we are not, there is hope for the future, and we are united in much, the Apostolic faith.

Here, we find the Temple, the Sacrifice, the priesthood - fulfillment of the Torah in the Person of Our Lord.

Zobel said:

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Infection_Ag11 said:

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I'm just imagining someone in a senior level MEEN class day dreaming about how many children had to be sacrificed to Moloch in 837 BCE to gain one superpower. Like what's the child sacrifice to telepathy acquisition ratio.

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Sure. Today we just sacrifice kids to gain economic power. Totally different.

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I'm adamantly against abortion, but let's not pretend making more money because you aborted your fetus and kept your job is somehow analogous to the claim that people 2000 years ago were spawning gold bars and acquiring superpowers because they stabbed babies on an alter. That's just classic supernatural goalpost shifting.

It's pretty weird that all the stuff that violates natural law and physics stopped occurring once we had to ability to objectively assess such things. Like the demons got spooked by video recording technology and smart phones and decided to go underground. Must have been a wild ass ride to be alive back in the day.

one MEEN Ag said:

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Infection_Ag11 said:

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I PROMISE I will not be googling how to access my third eye.

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Ironically, if you truly were an atheist, doing all sorts of rituals with the intention of doing them earnestly and correctly would be something you'd have no problem doing to taunt demons. 'See they don't exist.'

But you know that on the off chance that demons do exist - you shouldn't be doing these things. So you correctly avoid this tail risk you are adamant doesn't exist.

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It was a crude sex/porn joke, and given it didnt land it feels even sillier now.

No I have no concern that demons will come inhabit me in some way because I watch some video or perform some ritual.

one MEEN Ag said:

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Priest account of exorcisms he's done:


Former satanist turned catholic account of how the world of satanism works:


Here's a secular academic book that explores out of body experiences with near death experiences: The Self Does Not Die. I have read it, its a great book.
https://a.co/d/3Nvh275

And an orthodox saint's account of an exorcism. You fight demons not by facing the demon, but by drawing closer to Christ.


As a sidenote, I view the catholic church as outside The Church as any good orthodox would. But there is clearly some ability here to drive out demons through their prayer and fasting. I make no theological claims about church unity through this. That satanist video has wicked stuff in it, don't dwell on it. I personally think the main guy does a bit. Even though its in context of look what Christ redeemed, its still a hook demons use to draw others in. Through his testimony he shares salacious details that pique interest. Its the bargain demons provide - listen here and peak behind the veil. There's a reason why most testimonies tell you to skip the bad stuff and get to the conversion and things Christ has done in your life. But you're an atheist, hiding these accounts just keeps you chugging along thinking none of it exists.

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I'm not disputing for one second many people deeply believe in such things and even believe they have personally experienced and interacted with the supernatural. I won't even accuse them of lying, though it's a statistical certainty some are. I'm just saying I don't have any reason on to believe their claimed experiences actually represent true interactions with the supernatural. Especially with all that we've learned the last 25 years regarding neural pathways, the effect of various substances and pathologies on those pathways and the psychology of things like mass delusions and trained psychosomatic responses.

I mean, we live in a society where a not inconsequential number of adults genuinely believe they are women born into a male body (and vice versa). I mean DEEPLY believe that with conviction. In that context believing you've interacted with the supernatural, a predisposition that is hardwired into us by evolutionary selection, is nothing in comparison.

Viewing these experiences as subjective delusions and mistaken pathology is the easiest thing in the world for me. It's just blatantly obvious in light of all we know and are still learning about the human brain.

Motte->bailey

This indeed, has been a fascinating conversation. Thanks to all who participated. Learned some things.

God's people follow the Logos of John 1, including the great OT figures.

Proclaim the Good News of Emmanuel, God with us. From Isaiah 7:14 to Matthew 1:23 to today, when He appears to many Muslims in dreams, the Triune God calls us to join His people.

A different take.

"an ancestor, by blood, of Abraham"

Oh? This exists today?

Does anyone here wish to defend this definition?

What did David Reich of Harvard, probably the top geneticist on the planet, say on this question? And, given that arguments from authority are not strong, what evidence supports such a claim?

Again, race (extended family partly in-bred, as relatively isolated groups do, over time, develop genetic markers) as a reality does exist…..

Yet - what are BEST DEFINITIONS?

Best is the ethnicity (shared characteristic) of RELIGION ("the Nazarene is not the Messiah")

This has been the core definition since Titus decimated the Temple, leaving only a portion of Mark Antony's military headquarters ….

exactly as Our Lord Jesus Christ predicted in Matthew 24:1-2, Mark 13:1-2, Luke 21:5-6

nearing end of Rogers, For the Freedom of Zion: The Great Revolt of Jews against Romans, 66-74 CE

This is a comprehensive account, necessarily with Josephus as base source, and includes a lot of detail about Roman provisions and maneuvers. While not sympathetic to my views on this thread…

The conclusion is inescapable. This was a world shattering decade, of massive and irreversible consequence. Not only massive casualties: an entire way of life was decimated.

Spiritually, the 3 verses in my post above highlight what a radical transformation this was.

The "Son of Man," divinity in the (Trinitarian) "books" of Enoch quoted by St. Jude, now proven to be written in BC, has come, Emmanuel, God with us….

Temple is the body, Mary the Ark, Mass the Sacrifice, Eucharist is manna from heaven……

You have no clue whatsoever what you're talking about.

I would ask you to cite and detail, but we've seen how that (doesn't) go.

Edit: I do so ask. Go ahead.

TeddyAg0422 said:

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Taking this from Jimmy Akin on the Catholic position according to scripture and explored in the Catechism, and directly quoting below. Thought it could be of some value:

"…the Church acknowledges that God does still have plans for the Jews as a unique people (Catechism of the Catholic Church 674). Paul clearly indicates this in his writings, especially in Romans 911, where he indicates God continues to fulfill his promises about the Jewish people by preserving a remnant of Jewish believers in Christ (11:15). This indicates a special place for Israel, for no other people has a promise that there will always be a believing remnant. God also has future plans for the Jewish people: One day the Jewish people as a nation will return to Christ, and this will be one of the signs of the Second Coming and the resurrection of the dead (11:12, 15)."

"…the Church is spiritual Israel or, in Catholic parlance, the "new Israel" (cf. CCC 877). This too is indicated in Paul's writings: In Romans 9:6 he says that "not all who are of Israel are Israel." This indicates the existence of two Israels. One"all who are of Israel"indicates the ethnic people, not all of whom believe in Jesus. The other Israel, the context reveals, does not include those who have rejected the Messiah. This new Israel, founded by Messiah, exists in spiritual continuity with the Old Testament saints and so counts as a "spiritual Israel." It includes Gentiles who believe in the Messiah and so through baptism are spiritually circumcised (Col. 2:1112) and are reckoned as spiritual Jews (Rom. 2:2629)."

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How does one come about that there are 2 Israels, a new and old? No where in the Torah, prophets, or writings is this even hinted at much less stated out right. Based on the previous chapters, Paul is writing to someone Jewish who more than likely is not a believer. This is based on chapter many verses within Romans (remember this is really one long letter and not broken out in chapters). For instance, verse 3:5 states "But if OUR unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? God is not unrighteous to inflict wrath, is He?" (emphasis mine). Throughout ch 9 it is about Israel as a race and Paul countering that it isn't about race and never has been about race! So, vs 6 "...For not all those who are descended from Israel are Israel" isn't about a spiritual church, Paul is stating it isn't about one's ancestry. Like Ishmael who descended from Abraham and was blessed, it isn't about ancestry. Like Esau who came through the line of Abraham, it isn't about ancestry.

dermdoc said:

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kingj3 said:

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The church

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So when Paul wrote Israel at that point in time, you think he meant the church? Why didn't he say so? What do you think the word Israel meant to Paul?

And not trying to be argumentative but ai just can't fathom that Paul meant the church when he used the word Israel.

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I think he meant all Israel, though Israel isn't about being a descendant of someone.

Given conversations in the wake of Charlie Kirk's murder, let's think about Andrew Klavan for a minute, friend and colleague of Ben Shapiro.

A good example of what I've been saying on this thread, yet an example of essential need for clarity of terms.

Raised "secular Jewish" - again, many famous atheist Jews. Best definition of this large, diverse umbrella term …. ethnic (shared characteristic), here negative - "Nazarene is not the Messiah"

- Trinitarian baptism - so Klaven is a …. Christian

- does Ben need to stop rejecting Christ (Logos, we know Him as Jesus) to avoid separation from God?
"Well….."
Massive amount of hemming and hawing

So, again, who are the people Israel? Is it not those that follow, from the OT and before to now, the Logos of John 1, who makes Himself known to all earnest seekers? Emmanuel, God with us?

Is there any prophecy stating one must accept the messiah to be saved?