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Why the FBI uses 9mm

4,362 Views | 37 Replies | Last: 1 mo ago by schmellba99
eric76
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The following is an interesting video about why the FBI uses 9mm:



The video is an interview at the FBI's Ballistic Research Facility with Scott, an FBI agent/researcher who has been at the BRF since 2010 and is about the FBI's move to 9mm semiauto.

From what he said, the caliber is not much of a consideration. It is the ammunition that matters.

The discussion on 9 mm starts at 17:20 into the video.

At 19:08, "We can give you more velocity for that caliber and get the bullets t be more consistent through the intervening barriers than the others and ensure functional reliability in the gun across a fleet. ... You are giving us the ability to put better engineering and more engineering into the nine than we can in the others."

At 21:29, "The gains we saw in research were unbelievable for our shooters."

In a test including people who had never held a firearm up to hostage rescue personnel, they comparred a 40 and a 9 in rapid fire: "At the end of all those assessments, six out of ten shooters were faster in their shot strengths and significantly more accurate by just shooting the 9 millimeter pistol over the 40.

At 23:17, "When people talk about shot performance, they always talk about a shot straight at somebody standing in your home, right? Someone's coming up the stairwell at your family and you're going to defend it or you're us out there on the street affecting an arrest. They want to talk about this that I can go to Cabela's up the street here and buy almost anything off the shelf there and I promise you you're going to be just fine right here (pointing at his center of mass). It's when you turn and you've got to drive through the large bones of the shoulder, the other things. Somebody is holding an AK-47 up and you got to drive through the forearm to then get to something that sustains the life functions of that human target, that's when it all changes for us. And it's when those 9 millimeter bullets with their right design and the attendant velocity we can get from it outshine the others in terms of consistency."
RM76
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I haven't watched the video yet, but does he state what bullet or bullet type they have settled on, and what MV they want to drive it at?
eric76
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They go into that, but without brands starting at about 25:17:

"I would look at 135 to 147 in 9 millimeter and typically your law enforcement lines. Every major manufacturer has it. It's pretty clear on the box at the store. Those grain weights seem to be the most consistent with the right design and the right velocity. ... You are going to get into +P s to get the 124s to go deep enough. I don't think we've ever looked at a 115 or anything in the really lightweight."

The interviewer asked, "Does +P ... make a difference when you've got the heavier grain weights like 147 ...?"

Scott answered, "Well, it depends on the design of the projectile and where the manufacturer wants it to work. What velocity window? But it could."

BlueSmoke
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So to come full circle. They started with little .38's, move to 9's, then had a shootout in the 80's that was the genesis for looking at the beefier 10mm.

It was too much to handle for most people, leading to the .40S&W development, which is still too hot to shoot rapidly with accuracy, leading us back to the.....9mm.
Nobody cares. Work Harder
eric76
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I thought it was interesting when he talked about how the research on the 9 mm was proceeding so quickly and not on the heavier calibers.

Note that when talking about the 9 mm, he said that he didn't think that an appropriate 9 mm bullets were available at the time of that shootout.
UTExan
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Badlands Munitions carries a newer technology 9mm at 124 grains and an advertised muzzle velocity of 1260 fps. I believe the cartridge case uses a steel alloy with a separate attached base which accommodates higher chamber pressures. They also market a 5.56 NATO round at 77 grains with a reported 2700-3000 fps depending on loading using the same case technology.
“If you’re going to have crime it should at least be organized crime”
-Havelock Vetinari
eric76
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Regarding the question about 9mm ammo used by law enforcement, this might be helpful from https://thegunzone.com/what-ammo-do-police-carry-in-9mm/

Quote:

While specific choices vary depending on agency policy, budget, and testing, some of the most commonly used 9mm JHP ammunition brands and loads include:

* Federal HST (Hydra-Shok Tactical): This is arguably the most popular choice among law enforcement agencies. Known for its consistent expansion and reliable performance through various barriers, it offers excellent stopping power and manageable recoil.

* Speer Gold Dot: Another widely respected option, Speer Gold Dot is known for its consistent expansion and resistance to plugging with clothing or other materials. It's a long-standing benchmark for law enforcement ammunition.

* Winchester Ranger T-Series: Designed specifically for law enforcement, the Ranger T-Series is known for its aggressive expansion and deep penetration. It is a robust and reliable choice.

* Remington Golden Saber: This ammunition offers a combination of expansion and penetration, making it a versatile option for various scenarios. While perhaps not as popular as Federal HST or Speer Gold Dot, it's still a reputable choice.

O.G.
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BlueSmoke said:

So to come full circle. They started with little .38's, move to 9's, then had a shootout in the 80's that was the genesis for looking at the beefier 10mm.

It was too much to handle for most people, leading to the .40S&W development, which is still too hot to shoot rapidly with accuracy, leading us back to the.....9mm.

This was the FBi trying to gear their way out of a training problem.
malenurse
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O.G. said:

BlueSmoke said:

So to come full circle. They started with little .38's, move to 9's, then had a shootout in the 80's that was the genesis for looking at the beefier 10mm.

It was too much to handle for most people, leading to the .40S&W development, which is still too hot to shoot rapidly with accuracy, leading us back to the.....9mm.

This was the FBi trying to gear their way out of a training problem.


Amen brother. The Hollywood Shootout disaster was never about caliber. It was about tactics and proficiency
TheGifGuy
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Im curious to see what the other videos they put out, think they said this was a 3 part series?
91AggieLawyer
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BlueSmoke said:

So to come full circle. They started with little .38's, move to 9's, then had a shootout in the 80's that was the genesis for looking at the beefier 10mm.

It was too much to handle for most people, leading to the .40S&W development, which is still too hot to shoot rapidly with accuracy, leading us back to the.....9mm.


For a long time, I was told I was an idiot to even consider carrying a 9. For the last few years, it is now all about shot placement and the load, not the caliber -- something I've said for 3 decades!

I'm fine carrying 115 +Ps. But as I've always said, if you want to carry a .40 or .45 (or a .44 mag for all I care), CARRY it.

I think most carriers, especially in the southwest, should concern themselves with what the Texas State Troopers carry. They operate in conditions citizens are far more likely to face than what the FBI operates in. Have they moved to 9s or are they still carrying the .357sig? I've heard both.
eric76
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TheGifGuy said:

Im curious to see what the other videos they put out, think they said this was a 3 part series?

I subscribed to the channel so that I will hopefully see notifications if and when they are posted. If I see them, I'll post the links on this thread.
Claude!
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malenurse said:

O.G. said:

BlueSmoke said:

So to come full circle. They started with little .38's, move to 9's, then had a shootout in the 80's that was the genesis for looking at the beefier 10mm.

It was too much to handle for most people, leading to the .40S&W development, which is still too hot to shoot rapidly with accuracy, leading us back to the.....9mm.

This was the FBi trying to gear their way out of a training problem.


Amen brother. The Hollywood Shootout disaster was never about caliber. It was about tactics and proficiency

Not to nitpick, but the move to 10mm and .40 S&W was in the aftermath of the 1986 Miami shootout.
malenurse
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Yeah, I'm old. Got my shootouts confused
Muzzleblast
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Part of the .40s problem was that most female agents couldn't shoot it well. Same for many police departments.
I'm a fan of both. Love the rebated rim that reduces failure to feed.
My EDCs are a G 43X converted to a 15 round magazine and a Wilson WC320.
BrazosDog02
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91AggieLawyer said:

BlueSmoke said:

So to come full circle. They started with little .38's, move to 9's, then had a shootout in the 80's that was the genesis for looking at the beefier 10mm.

It was too much to handle for most people, leading to the .40S&W development, which is still too hot to shoot rapidly with accuracy, leading us back to the.....9mm.


For a long time, I was told I was an idiot to even consider carrying a 9.


And those same people then went out and killed bigger animals than humans with 6.5 and 5.56. I don't know if anything wastes more frivolous bandwidth than forum discussions on caliber or motor oil.
Eliminatus
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UTExan said:

Badlands Munitions carries a newer technology 9mm at 124 grains and an advertised muzzle velocity of 1260 fps. I believe the cartridge case uses a steel alloy with a separate attached base which accommodates higher chamber pressures. They also market a 5.56 NATO round at 77 grains with a reported 2700-3000 fps depending on loading using the same case technology.


They use NAS3's Shell Shock cases. Which is what you describe. I reload with them. They last exponentially longer than brass and are tougher and lighter. They even cost cheaper than new brass does and the metal base is magnetic so can be picked up by magnet which is a blessing for us brass goblins. Can even be anodized too for identification. Do need specialized die set for it though.

This tech SHOULD be the next big thing in pistol reloading but has stayed extremely niche for years now. Reloading community is quite stubborn of change. Go to any forum discussing it and the ignorant hate is just rampant. Just because it is different.
Green2Maroon
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I will have to check them out.
BenderRodriguez
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We're talking about nas3 cases over in the 300blk hunting thread too.
Eliminatus
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Nice. Small world. I feel like I was the only one that knew they existed and now two mentions on the same day?! Wild.

I don't shoot 300BLK and pretty sure you can't reload the NAS3 rifle cases unfortunately. I know you can't on the 5.56 at least when I looked into it. I just hope they keep selling enough to stay around. Been worried about that for literally years now. Really into this tech and think it's cool as hell. I'm happy they offer rifle options now finally which is signs of growth.

I still need to load an Inceptor 9mm bullet into an SS case and see just how light I can make a feasible self defense cartridge. My napkin calcs have one right at a smidge over a 100gr. For the entire thing. Bullet, powder, primer, casing. Just to say I did.
B-1 83
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Last I checked, Customs uses the .40 S&W
Being in TexAgs jail changes a man……..no, not really
agsalaska
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It's all about control and the ability to make follow up shots. And a little bit about barrier penetration.

There is not a poster on this board that would not choose a 10,45,40 over a 9 for one shot. It's all about shots 2-10.

And thats great. I buy into that. I carry a 9mm.
CactusThomas
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Eliminatus said:

UTExan said:

Badlands Munitions carries a newer technology 9mm at 124 grains and an advertised muzzle velocity of 1260 fps. I believe the cartridge case uses a steel alloy with a separate attached base which accommodates higher chamber pressures. They also market a 5.56 NATO round at 77 grains with a reported 2700-3000 fps depending on loading using the same case technology.


They use NAS3's Shell Shock cases. Which is what you describe. I reload with them. They last exponentially longer than brass and are tougher and lighter. They even cost cheaper than new brass does and the metal base is magnetic so can be picked up by magnet which is a blessing for us brass goblins. Can even be anodized too for identification. Do need specialized die set for it though.

This tech SHOULD be the next big thing in pistol reloading but has stayed extremely niche for years now. Reloading community is quite stubborn of change. Go to any forum discussing it and the ignorant hate is just rampant. Just because it is different.


Nobody is more stubborn of change than me but I am intrigued by your comment. Can you quantify case life compared to brass?
CactusThomas
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What other pistol cases are made in this material than can be hand loaded?
Eliminatus
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Most brass you might be able to get 5-10 firings before you get cracking and primer pocket loosening. That's with high quality new brass shooting standard loads.

NAS3 cases have been tested to consistently handle 30+ firings at +p+ loads before signs of cracking are detected with no primer pocket deformation. I am right at around 10 firings with my highest myself so far and they are still functionally perfect.

They only do 9mm and 380 unfortunately. It's a small company that always seemed to be on the verge of not making it to me with how little headway I saw them making in the shooting world. There was talk of doing 40 and 45 years ago if interest panned out but here we are with nada. Though we did get rifle offerings after a long while. Can't reload those sadly though.

You can poke around their site itself.

https://shellshocktechnologies.com/shop/unloaded-cases/unprimed-9mm-nas3-cases/
UTExan
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And readers might find this video informative regarding the potential advantages, particularly for the military, which is projected to have higher propellant loadings. At issue for me is the durability of the weapons platforms.
“If you’re going to have crime it should at least be organized crime”
-Havelock Vetinari
CactusThomas
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Eliminatus said:

Most brass you might be able to get 5-10 firings before you get cracking and primer pocket loosening. That's with high quality new brass shooting standard loads.

NAS3 cases have been tested to consistently handle 30+ firings at +p+ loads before signs of cracking are detected with no primer pocket deformation. I am right at around 10 firings with my highest myself so far and they are still functionally perfect.

They only do 9mm and 380 unfortunately. It's a small company that always seemed to be on the verge of not making it to me with how little headway I saw them making in the shooting world. There was talk of doing 40 and 45 years ago if interest panned out but here we are with nada. Though we did get rifle offerings after a long while. Can't reload those sadly though.

You can poke around their site itself.

https://shellshocktechnologies.com/shop/unloaded-cases/unprimed-9mm-nas3-cases/

Thank you very much. I hand load at least a dozen handgun cartridges but not any for automatics.

I had no idea 9mm brass life was so short- that's crazy.
AgLA06
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BlueSmoke said:

So to come full circle. They started with little .38's, move to 9's, then had a shootout in the 80's that was the genesis for looking at the beefier 10mm.

It was too much to handle for most people, leading to the .40S&W development, which is still too hot to shoot rapidly with accuracy, leading us back to the.....9mm.


Yah, this is the exact reason I struggle with them being the definitive experts on what round to use. They've proven otherwise way too many times.

I do think their research and data are a great resource for each person to use in their own decision.
agsalaska
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It's also important to point out that the FBI is applying their logic to duty size guns with 5 or so inch barrels. A bullet out if a 3 inch p365 will act much different than a bullet out of a 4.6 inch p226.

Some people are going to watch that, not understand that fact, and load their micro 9 with a bullet designed for a Glock 17.

Big difference.
NRH ag 10
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CactusThomas said:

Eliminatus said:

Most brass you might be able to get 5-10 firings before you get cracking and primer pocket loosening. That's with high quality new brass shooting standard loads.

NAS3 cases have been tested to consistently handle 30+ firings at +p+ loads before signs of cracking are detected with no primer pocket deformation. I am right at around 10 firings with my highest myself so far and they are still functionally perfect.

They only do 9mm and 380 unfortunately. It's a small company that always seemed to be on the verge of not making it to me with how little headway I saw them making in the shooting world. There was talk of doing 40 and 45 years ago if interest panned out but here we are with nada. Though we did get rifle offerings after a long while. Can't reload those sadly though.

You can poke around their site itself.

https://shellshocktechnologies.com/shop/unloaded-cases/unprimed-9mm-nas3-cases/

Thank you very much. I hand load at least a dozen handgun cartridges but not any for automatics.

I had no idea 9mm brass life was so short- that's crazy.

I've only recently started reloading 9mm, but I haven't heard that claim about such short life from any other source outside of people loading 9mm major for Open guns.
Green2Maroon
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I've only loaded .45 in pistol cartridges. Seems to be too cheap to just buy the 9mm, at least the basic practice loads.
NRH ag 10
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Starting to reload 9mm might be one of the dumbest things I've ever done.
schmellba99
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Eliminatus said:

Most brass you might be able to get 5-10 firings before you get cracking and primer pocket loosening. That's with high quality new brass shooting standard loads.

NAS3 cases have been tested to consistently handle 30+ firings at +p+ loads before signs of cracking are detected with no primer pocket deformation. I am right at around 10 firings with my highest myself so far and they are still functionally perfect.

They only do 9mm and 380 unfortunately. It's a small company that always seemed to be on the verge of not making it to me with how little headway I saw them making in the shooting world. There was talk of doing 40 and 45 years ago if interest panned out but here we are with nada. Though we did get rifle offerings after a long while. Can't reload those sadly though.

You can poke around their site itself.

https://shellshocktechnologies.com/shop/unloaded-cases/unprimed-9mm-nas3-cases/

Sounds great, but with the availability of pistol brass at the range for free, I just can't see spending that much time policing up my high dollar brass. Being magnetic makes it a little easier, if I rememberr to bring the magnet. Range is supposed to have one but they always disappear.

Same with 5.56 - I pick up what I can pick up, and then go to the brass bin to get more to replenish what I lost in the process. And I don't care about brass I shoot out at the lease at pigs, etc. - it's just too plentiful. 9mm is the same out at the lease or out plinking/hunting as well.

6.5G, .243, .264 WM is a different story. I actively try to retain that brassa and would love to have a case that could handle more than the standard number of firings in calibers like those. The tech is definitely intriguing.
schmellba99
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NRH ag 10 said:

Starting to reload 9mm might be one of the dumbest things I've ever done.

Outside of the PITA that dealing with the little short cases is, I can still load 9mm for equal or less than I can buy it, and that's with using 115g JHP's. If I load up my cast lead projos it's always under retail by a decent amount. Used to I could load it for about half the market rate but the price on that caliber has definitely come down.
schmellba99
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I'd bet you can get 15+ loads out of a 9mm case if you aren't loading +p, there just isn't that much pressure or force on them really.

But honestly I wouldnt' know because I doubt seriously I've ever been able to keep a 9mm case past 3, maybe 4 firings before it gets lost.
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