https://www.themaven.net/bluelivesmatter/news/deputy-sues-gun-manufacturer-over-shattered-femur-utqGh979B0CyqihO58D75Q/
A Loudoun County deputy said her SIG Sauer P320 discharged as she was removing her holster from her duty belt.
Loudoun County, VA A Loudoun County sheriff's deputy has filed a lawsuit against SIG Sauer alleging that her fully-holstered duty weapon discharged and sent a bullet into her leg.
The incident occurred on Feb. 7, when 37-year-old Loudoun County Deputy Marcie Vadnais went to the Northern Virginia Criminal Justice Academy to attend a general instructor course, the Loudoun Times-Mirror reported.
In accordance with academy policy, Deputy Vadnais began removing her firearm from her belt when she arrived.
According to the lawsuit, as she fed the belt through the holster's first tooth, her SIG Sauer P320 somehow "fired one nine millimeter bullet, which hit her in the upper right thigh," the Blast reported.
"At no time during this incident did she touch the trigger, which at all times was inside and covered by a SIG-manufactured holster," the lawsuit read.
The round shattered the deputy's femur "in several places" and caused "massive blood loss and other internal injuries," according to the suit.
Deputy Vadnais, a 7-year veteran of the force, still has shrapnel and bone fragments embedded in her leg. A steel rod now holds her femur in place.
Due to the extent of her injuries, she will likely "have trouble ever running or walking normally again, and may not be able to return to her position as a result," the lawsuit said.
The deputy said that SIG Sauer misled the public regarding the safety of the P320.
"We've designed safety elements into every necessary feature on this pistol," the gun manufacturer said in an advertisement, according to the deputy's suit. "From the trigger, to the striker and even the magazine, the P320 won't fire unless you want it to."
In April of 2016, the U.S. Army put the P320 through drop testing as part of a potential $580 million contract with SIG Sauer but there was a problem, CNN reported.
"During drop testing in which an empty primed cartridge was inserted, the striker struck the primer causing a discharge," the Department of Defense noted in a report, according to CNN.
In order to keep the deal, SIG Sauer fixed the problem by using "lightweight components in the trigger group mechanism," the report said.
The upgrade was implemented by the time the military ran testing trials on the P320 in April of 2017, but the gun manufacturer continued to sell the pre-upgrade versions of the weapon to the general public for at least four months, according to CNN.
In August of 2017, the company offered to apply the fix for civilians, as well. By that time, over 500,000 pre-upgrade P320s had been sold to the general public.
The "voluntary upgrade" was "presented to the public as purely optional, not urgent, and not mandatory," Deputy Vadnais' lawsuit read, according to the Blast.
The program was touted as a means by which "to make existing commercial versions of the P320 'better' by installing a much lighter trigger, and internal disconnect switch, and an improved sear to prevent accidental discharges," the lawsuit said.
Deputy Vadnais wasn't the only law enforcement officer who has experienced an unintended discharge of the P320, according to CNN.
In January of 2017, a SWAT team member in Connecticut said that a bullet hit him in the knee when he accidentally dropped his holstered weapon.
A holstered P320 went off when it was dropped inside a New Jersey police station in June of 2017, and another holstered gun discharged in Georgia when a police officer slipped and fell in October of 2017.
On March 29, a SWAT team member in Florida accidentally dropped his holstered weapon as he was leaving his home to respond to a possible hostage situation. The gun sent a bullet into his leg and shattered his tibia near his knee.
Deputy Vadnais is seeking to have SIG Sauer recall the weapon a move she estimated would cost the gun manufacturer approximately $100 million, the Blast reported.
The deputy otherwise suggested that the company issue an "enhanced, unambiguous warning to all purchasers of the P320 stating that it can fire without a trigger pull in its existing condition."
Deputy Vadnais is seeking $10 million in damages.

Trigger wasn't touched, pistol wasn't dropped, it just randomly went off while she was removing her duty belt and the pistol was in the holster on the belt?

I don't understand how this happens. Lots of questions.

I heard about this a couple of weeks ago. I... don't know how the gun would have discharged if it was in a holster being threaded onto a belt. I've seen a couple of other articles on this, and I'm not entirely clear on how this occured in the first place. Was it in the same holster or was it transferred between holsters and the discharge occured in the holster it was transferred to?

The hurdle is that it passed drop safe tests previously and the prior issue where it would discharge if it was dropped on the rear of the slide went above those test requirements, so proving that it was a design fault is going to be the challenge imo.

Quote:

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...fired one nine millimeter bullet, which hit her in the upper right thigh. The round shattered the deputy's femur "in several places" and caused "massive blood loss and other internal injuries," according to the suit. Deputy Vadnais, a 7-year veteran of the force, still has shrapnel and bone fragments embedded in her leg. A steel rod now holds her femur in place. Due to the extent of her injuries, she will likely "have trouble ever running or walking normally again

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And some people think 9mm isn't sufficient.

So many questions as this is basically claiming that it can randomly fire of its on volition. Which I highly doubt. I would love to see a picture of the actual holster since sig has gone through various design evolutions on the holsters.

Houston Police had mandated the Sig P320 for all new PD officers, but backed off it because of concerns about this.

As someone who owns a 320... there is no way it just goes off like that... there is more to this story than the officer shared... some times it sucks to admit you just mishandled a gun.. but it's the likely answer.

Guitarsoup said:

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Houston Police had mandated the Sig P320 for all new PD officers, but backed off it because of concerns about this.

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Concerns about the pistol randomly going off while holstered and not being dropped or mishandled? First I have heard of that.

TxA&Mhunter said:

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some times it sucks to admit you just mishandled a gun.. but it's the likely answer.

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I'm not a big fan on Ron Cohen run sig but I agree that 99% of the time "the gun just went off" is BS.

The again, Remington 700s did have some trigger issues and the 320 has had other issues. Here was a Taurus model a few years ago that was having trouble with the hammer slipping off the sear when the safety was engaged too iirc.

Mechanical objects can and do fail, and it's why we have redundant safety rules.

It can happen. I saw a custom rifle go off when a round was chambered while hunting in a top drive rig. Friend later took it back to the shop. The next year it went off again. This time when take off safety...
Luckily both times gun was pointed in a safe direction.

Mas89 said:

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It can happen. I saw a custom rifle go off when a round was chambered while hunting in a top drive rig. Friend later took it back to the shop. The next year it went off again. This time when take off safety...
Luckily both times gun was pointed in a safe direction.

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Not even remotely similar to the above described incident. In both of your examples, there was some mechanical operations taking place. If we are to believe the original post, a Sig P320, while securely holstered and with no outside interference, discharged a round.

Color me skeptical.

And, I am a 320 owner.

Deputy or not, there is a woman involved here.

Picard said:

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Deputy or not, there is a woman involved here.

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Cmon man.

My dad's long time hunting buddy carried a rem 700 in 7 mag for years. I think it was made in the 70's or 80's. 2 years ago he chambered a round close to our house out on the ranch. Dad was standing next to him and confirmed his finger was no where near the trigger. Rifle discharged into the stone wall of the house bc the muzzle was pointed up well above head level.

Scared them both to death. He had it serviced for the recall but it just sits on the shelf now. Neither of them trust it and can't get past it.

I tend to be a bit skeptical when I hear about stories like this, BUT, we need to remember that guns are mechanical devices designed and manufactured by humans and that means they can and do fail.

I think it would be more plausible if she bumped into something with it while taking the belt off perhaps. Simply the act of taking off a belt doesn't seem to have any correlation to the known issues the firearm has had before. (But there's a first time for everything)

dr_boogs said:

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My dad's long time hunting buddy carried a rem 700 in 7 mag for years. I think it was made in the 70's or 80's. 2 years ago he chambered a round close to our house out on the ranch. Dad was standing next to him and confirmed his finger was no where near the trigger. Rifle discharged into the stone wall of the house bc the muzzle was pointed up well above head level.

Scared them both to death. He had it serviced for the recall but it just sits on the shelf now. Neither of them trust it and can't get past it.

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I thought the recall was only for rifles made from 2006-2012

For those who don't want to read the article, the Army found a flaw while drop-testing it in 2016. SIG fixed it for the Army, but continued to sell the gun with the faulty trigger to the general public for at least four month. SIG later offered an "upgraded" trigger, without stating the seriousness of the issue.

The problem has happened to others, as well.

dr_boogs said:

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My dad's long time hunting buddy carried a rem 700 in 7 mag for years. I think it was made in the 70's or 80's. 2 years ago he chambered a round close to our house out on the ranch. Dad was standing next to him and confirmed his finger was no where near the trigger. Rifle discharged into the stone wall of the house bc the muzzle was pointed up well above head level.

Scared them both to death. He had it serviced for the recall but it just sits on the shelf now. Neither of them trust it and can't get past it.

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My son has a Remington 700. Instead of futzing with the recall we just installed a Timney trigger. It was $130 or so, but was an almost drop in installation and was set from the factory at 4 pounds. It was worth the money to not worry about which version of the Remington 700 trigger was going to go rogue next.

And something about 700s...dang they are accurate. Sub MOA groups with 270 reloads. Its just a standard 700, nothing fancy.

IDAGG said:

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dr_boogs said:

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My dad's long time hunting buddy carried a rem 700 in 7 mag for years. I think it was made in the 70's or 80's. 2 years ago he chambered a round close to our house out on the ranch. Dad was standing next to him and confirmed his finger was no where near the trigger. Rifle discharged into the stone wall of the house bc the muzzle was pointed up well above head level.

Scared them both to death. He had it serviced for the recall but it just sits on the shelf now. Neither of them trust it and can't get past it.

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My son has a Remington 700. Instead of futzing with the recall we just installed a Timney trigger. It was $130 or so, but was an almost drop in installation and was set from the factory at 4 pounds. It was worth the money to not worry about which version of the Remington 700 trigger was going to go rogue next.

And something about 700s...dang they are accurate. Sub MOA groups with 270 reloads. Its just a standard 700, nothing fancy.

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Dads 700 had the issue occur.

We put Timneys in his and mine.

I received an email from SIG recently. I'm not sure if this repair/upgrade is associated with the above described discharge, but it makes me wonder.


Dear SIG SAUER Customer,
As previously announced in August of 2017, additional testing above and beyond U.S. firearms abusive handling test standards indicated that the P320 could experience a discharge if the pistol is dropped under certain conditions. Even though the P320 passes all U.S. testing protocols and passed numerous professional agency tests, including the U.S. Army, in August of 2017, SIG SAUER instituted a free upgrade program available to all P320 owners to further enhance the safety and improve the functionality of the pistol. This upgrade is done at no cost to P320 owners including shipping.
The SIG SAUER P320 is one of the most widely used striker-fired handguns available today. It is used by civilians, law enforcement and military professionals in the U.S. and abroad. All branches of the U.S. military have now adopted a version of the P320, designated the M17 / M18.

Input from law enforcement, government, and military customers was used to develop a number of enhancements to the P320s functionality, reliability, and overall safety. As a result of this collaboration, SIG SAUER developed several performance enhancing upgrades to the P320 pistol.

SIG SAUER is reaching out to remind P320 owners of the free upgrade program. Since SIG SAUER started this program many thousands of P320s have been upgraded. Customers that have taken advantage of the program have been extremely pleased with the enhanced performance, reliability and safety, and have appreciated the ease and turnaround time of this upgrade process.

SIG SAUER encourages all customers who purchased a P320 to participate in the free upgrade program. For more information or to request an upgrade please visit sigsauer.com. If you have additional questions or need help with the online registration please contact SIG SAUER Customer Service at (603) 610-3000 and select Option 1, Monday through Friday, 8:30 a.m. through 6:00 p.m. EST.

Thank you for being a loyal SIG SAUER customer.

I believe that's referring to the very specific situation where if it's dropped on the rear of the slide/frame and the pistol would discharge. There's a bunch of videos on YouTube and articles on it. I believe one of the various channels tried to get it to discharge under different angles and drops, and were not successful iirc. The issue largely had to do with the fact that the trigger's mass would continue and effectively actuate the trigger. The P320 X-Five was exempt from this iirc because it already had a low mass trigger shoe. The P320's also don't have a dingus on the shoe like Glocks and other various manufacturers for a frame safety.

As to the military's version, let's not forget that those pistols have an external manual safety. The civilian version does not have this.

Thanks for the input. What I'm curious about in the email language is the highlighted portions. The legalize, vague language drives my curiosity.

"Input from law enforcement, government, and military customers was used to develop a number of enhancements to the P320s functionality, reliability, and overall safety. As a result of this collaboration, SIG SAUER developed several performance enhancing upgrades to the P320 pistol."

I know it's an email, but I would like them to define the highlighted words. It could possibly include known issues as described in the OP.

Well this thread aged well given everything that has happened over the last couple of years and culminating in the recent death of an Airman. If yall are any way or shape plugged into gun news at all, I am sure you have heard about the new 320 woes and uncommanded discharges.

The evidence is ever mounting and at this point there is not only smoke and an orange glow, but I am of the honest opinion that there is willful ignorance at play if someone still believes that there is something not at least functionally wrong with the design and the tolerances when there are literally millions in use with a majority of them being used in a duty role.

Either way, I drug up this old post to see the number of those who opted into the voluntary fix they did a while back on their 320s. I have one myself that I use strictly as a range toy and has never seen a second in a holster and never had a round in it when it was not on a firing bench. I also did not do the fix and wondering if I should just give up on the platform now ( I have other range toys) and go ahead and send it in to get a fix even though I know it really does not do anything for the most part. Even with all of this, I have the gun and some accessories for it and freely admit it is a fun platform. It fits my hand well and I am fast and accurate with it. But the way Sig USA has also been handling everything has really soured me I am not going to lie.

I guess the better question is, for those with 320s, what are yalls plans for it? Any change at all since the most recent news have come out?

For those who may be out of the loop:

https://www.twz.com/land/sig-m18-pistol-restrictions-expand-to-usaf-air-combat-command-units

TLDR: a holstered P320 finally killed someone. An active duty Airman. After well in the double digits of incidents of similar UDs in the civilian and LE communities for years now and SIG has publicly not only denied the claims but actively shamed and gaslit the gun community.

ETA: The Airman incident is still allegedly. Investigation still ongoing. Just thought I'd add that to CMA. Though the timing of the AF command he was in banning the use of the M18 after the incident was immediate. Pretty sure that wouldn't happen if there was reasonable doubt it was a human error/accident/malfeasance.

I like Sig/Sauer firearms.
I don't blame it on the craftsman at SIG. I blame it on their CEO and leadership.

I have more than a few Sigs, including two p320s. Been following these stories with some concern. I did replace my carry with a p365, which so far seems to be safe. The p320 modular fire control was such a great design to get a correct fit for a shooter. It also makes cleaning super easy. Pop out the FCU and give it a few minutes in a ultrasonic cleaner. I shoot them very well too, likely due to the lack of takeup and minimal sear contact that is now getting them in trouble.

I am not going to get rid of them because I still like them, the value has likely tanked, and I couldn't in good conscience do so. Toys for shooting that never see a round chambered until pointed down range. Still have the p365 for concealed carry, p226 and p229 for social work.

Hoss said:

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Quote:

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...fired one nine millimeter bullet, which hit her in the upper right thigh. The round shattered the deputy's femur "in several places" and caused "massive blood loss and other internal injuries," according to the suit. Deputy Vadnais, a 7-year veteran of the force, still has shrapnel and bone fragments embedded in her leg. A steel rod now holds her femur in place. Due to the extent of her injuries, she will likely "have trouble ever running or walking normally again

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And some people think 9mm isn't sufficient.

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everything is sufficient with a well-placed shot

PMD03 said:

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I have more than a few Sigs, including two p320s. Been following these stories with some concern. I did replace my carry with a p365, which so far seems to be safe. The p320 modular fire control was such a great design to get a correct fit for a shooter. It also makes cleaning super easy. Pop out the FCU and give it a few minutes in a ultrasonic cleaner. I shoot them very well too, likely due to the lack of takeup and minimal sear contact that is now getting them in trouble.

I am not going to get rid of them because I still like them, the value has likely tanked, and I couldn't in good conscience do so. Toys for shooting that never see a round chambered until pointed down range. Still have the p365 for concealed carry, p226 and p229 for social work.

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Yeah, the 365 should be good to go safety wise. I carried one for years myself but finally got tired of rusting the damn thing to death. I am a sweaty boy apparently.

I know the 320 market has already likely tanked so I am not really interested in selling either but the problems aren't going away and SIGs handling of it again is just gross all around to me. And I am getting older and such things matter more and more to me these days. Probably just safe queen it.

This video has been making the rounds and in it the guy was able to find an issue that may be at least one of the problems that may be causing at least some of these incidents. Long story short, If you take up the pretravel in the trigger and get it right to the edge of the wall, it basically becomes to the lightest competition hair trigger ever AND even more damning, it defeats ALL the safeties. The sear safety, the FCU safety, and the disconnect safety.
It's pretty wild and if you have the time and inclination, the full video explains it all. I have further thoughts on it, but this is probably not the thread for that.

So basically a hair trigger condition with a slide with a TON of slop in it and then normal jostling and moving around and pop goes the striker. Again, it's wild to me. The thing that really rustled my jimmies about the whole thing though, is that I was able to replicate it on my own fairly easily. Not every time, but enough to put it down and just shake my head. I have 20+ handguns and pulled some out and messed around with them and not a single one had anything close to the slop in the fit of the slide to the frame. Everything from $350 CZs to $2000 1911s. Looking back now, I am actually shocked at how I didn't notice how bad it was with the 320 until I played with it earlier today.

Again, my use case is yours. The only time it is chambered is on a firing bench or in my hands ready to be fired. Always pointed down range. I do no drills with it.

I am just stuck on what to do with this thing now and wondering what the OB hive mind was thinking about theirs. I like it and I have some money and time invested in mine, but it's also not a serious gun for me and I doubt I can recoup anything close to the cost I have in it and I don't feel good about giving it to someone. I also don't feel like supporting SIG much at this point. Though that may be a separate discussion entirely.

Video about uncommanded discharges:

This video demonstrates a failure mode that I do not know if SIG can recover from. Uncommanded firing and failure of the striker safety,

Holy crap what are the odds?

The Sun said:

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Holy crap what are the odds?

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Timely thread bump.

Certainly seems to be a "if there's smoke there's fire" situation now. If you're carrying a 320, I'd say its absolutely time to reconsider and pick something else.

I think whats made this one so difficult is that whatever the issue is, it seems to be hard to both predict and replicate.

For those who aren't aware of the history here, the 320 FCU was originally built for the P250 hammer fired polymer sigs that did not sell well, partially because they had very mediocre triggers. Sigs solution was to convert from hammer to striker fired, utilizing a full cocked striker and no trigger safety. Made for a good trigger, but also seems to have some major safety issues.

I'm not sure if there are tolerance stacking issues, qc issues, or flat out design issues but this isn't something that you can just run 100 rounds through the gun, say "I've had no issues, mine is safe" and go on with life. They're obviously not all failing, but even if only 1% have the potential to have a ND issue, those are terrible odds for something pointing at your leg and/or junk.

I've shot the heck out of my 320s in Flux Raiders and a USW chassis, but at this point the only way I carry/transport the Raiders is empty chamber (which is the appropriate way to carry bagged guns anyway), and there's no way I'd pick carrying a 320 over any other major pistol that is not having these issues.

SIG has built and still builds very fine weapons.
Hate to see a great gun manufacturer go down due to one possible mis step.

One thing is for sure…. The anti 2A and anti gun crowd are dancing in the streets with glee!!

Glad this came back up. Mine has a full size frame and I never have or will use it for carry but it is my nightstand weapon. I love shooting it but this puts a sour taste in my mouth even if it's not much of an issue for my intended use. Don't like that this issue hasn't been properly addressed. I did have Sig update the recalled trigger and assumed all was good after that.

Wouldn't want to sell it but also have concerns about keeping it and someone possibly inheriting it from me some day and not knowing the issue.

I used a P320 for my daily carry for many, many years. Thankfully never had an issue. I learned to really shoot it well, even with that DAO trigger. I really enjoyed the gun.

I upgraded to a 356XL about a year after it was released. So, I've been rocking that for a few years now, and vastly prefer it. I never truly used the modular design of the 320 as much as I thought I would. It stayed in subcompact form 90% of the time. I think the 365 is a better shooter and better pistol all around.

Anyone still with a 320 should probably look at the 365 and make a switch, as Bender suggested.