Performative tradness in NO parishes

2,904 Views | 45 Replies | Last: 2 days ago by 94chem
Vox Clamantis
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Extremely anecdotal but it seems that traditional catholicism is en-vogue amongst young Catholics and like any fad the outward signs are being highlighted even if the reason behind them isn't understood.

I attended Mass at St Anthony of Padua in the Woodlands, TX this Sunday at 11 a.m. There were a handful of veiled women and girls in the pews, and those that were veiled were seemingly younger than 50. Of note, that several of the women wearing veils were wearing short, tight what I would consider "sun-dresses". By no means inappropriate in a public-setting, just not Mass appropriate, and odd when paired with a veil.

Similarly I saw a few men carrying bibles with them, which I thought was fairly odd. I know that carrying a bible into church is fairly common for Protestants, but it seems a little superfluous in Mass. Not that the Bible itself is ever superfluous just that Mass is a liturgy which includes Bible readings, which are available in every church I've been. Perhaps charitably they were reading their Bibles before Mass started, but I thought it was kind of odd.

The strangest was people kneeling to take the Eucharist from the Priest (good), but then going to receive the chalice (standing obviously and drinking) from an EMHC (odd). Kneeling is the proper position to receive the Body of Christ, and receiving on the tongue the absolute best to avoid abuse given the Priest's blessed and anointed hands, and his role acting in Persona Christi Capitis. It's also an important participation in the understanding that God's salvation always comes as a free gift to us, that while we cooperate with it, do nothing ourselves to merit (when you take the chalice and drink it, you're essentially communicating yourself)

It disappointed me and heartened me in the same moment. I'm glad that for whatever reason people are embracing their Catholic birthright with the understanding that things were not always as they are now in the Novus Ordo, even if they don't fully understand the reasons behind it. While form usually is dictated by function, perhaps the opposite can be true for young Catholics and function can be reverse engineered by form.
The Banned
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As an NO goer, my experience with two separate parishes showing some inclinations of returning towards tradition, it is a slow process, led by priests who are recovering the traditions themselves. The concern is with going from guitar masses straight to ad orientum is such a potentially large shock that it can lose the laity. The case study for this was how many lay people the Church lost when the NO was instituted overnight. Big changes scare parishioners.

A good case study for the slow approach working is St Thomas in CS. Father Albert has slowly infused more and more traditionalism into the mass over the past 10 ish years. He's now doing quarterly Latin masses. The way the NO looks today is much more traditional than it was 10 years ago as well. It has been very intentional and successful. God willing, we will see Catholics continue to embrace tradition all the way back to what the NO was supposed to look like
Mark Fairchild
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AG
I pray that you are correct.
Gig'em, Ole Army Class of '70
Vox Clamantis
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Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi is a thing, to be sure. I am by no way judging these people as well, I trust their heart is in the right place, just noticing what I felt was some dissonance.
747Ag
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Nice to see people discovering older pieties and devotions. I see similar examples locally when I visit other parishes.
Faithful Ag
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I think part of the disconnect you are seeing is that to receive the precious Blood from our knees increases as the chance that something might happen leading to spilling. With a physical altar rail that risk is significantly less, or when receiving both together (intinction).

I am a member at St. Anthony. Personally, I receive the Body from my knees and generally do not receive the Blood because of the "logistics". I agree there has been a significant, positive shift in reverence toward the Eucharist over the past 5+ years, specifically at St. Anthony. Fr. Jesse and Fr. David (Hust) brought patents back several years ago which helped a lot. Fr. David ( a little controversial due to his conservative, traditional views) really called attention to the casualness that the laity were bringing to Mass and the Eucharist. His impact is still being seen and felt even though he's been gone for a couple of years now. I miss Fr. David.

Next time you are at St. Anthony I'd encourage you to visit the Our Lady of Angels Chapel where we have hundreds of relics of Saints including pretty much all of the Apostles and Mary Magdalene, a piece of the veil of the Blessed Mother, and a piece of the True Cross. It's a great place to take a moment for some prayer and reflection.
PabloSerna
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" The case study for this was how many lay people the Church lost when the NO was instituted overnight"

Oh really? Been reading just the opposite. Maybe you can cite something more than a hunch?

ETA: I say a hunch, not to dismiss your point, but worldwide the RCC is much larger than it was post Vatican II. So I am trying to understand where you are coming from.
747Ag
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PabloSerna said:

" The case study for this was how many lay people the Church lost when the NO was instituted overnight"

Oh really? Been reading just the opposite. Maybe you can cite something more than a hunch?

ETA: I say a hunch, not to dismiss your point, but worldwide the RCC is much larger than it was post Vatican II. So I am trying to understand where you are coming from.

This is one thing circulating lately...



As far as growth in numbers, what is the primary cause? Births? Conversions? Missionary work? Does it account for those leaving the Church (or are they still left on parish books)?
PabloSerna
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My sources are actual missionaries; the increase is/was phenomenal- all for the glory of God!

So much so, governments in South America wanted to throw them out. With an emphasis on basic human rights and the universal call to holiness- the church has not shrunk in any way.
PabloSerna
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If people are going to mass to be entertained and the music changed - I can see why.

I think the recent trend worldwide has little to do with the choice in music or vestments, but more to do with the work of the Holy Spirit.
The Banned
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Vox Clamantis said:

Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi is a thing, to be sure. I am by no way judging these people as well, I trust their heart is in the right place, just noticing what I felt was some dissonance.

You didn't come across as judgmental, and hopefully my comment didn't seem to accuse you of such.

There is definitely dissonance. From a TLM view, it's awkward right now. From a 1980s-2020 cradle Catholic view, it's awkward right now. It will continue for a time. Keep praying for the Church to get back to what Vatican 2 actually called for:

- Retention of Latin in the mass
- Gregorian Chant having pride of place in liturgical music
- Preservation of reverence
- No command or even suggestion to move to versus populum.
- No command or even suggestion to move to communion in the hand
- No command or even suggestion of Eucharistic ministers

Hopefully in my lifetime we'll see the actual documents of Vatican 2 lived out.


ETA: The most heartbreaking aspect leafing to this dissonance was the razing of beautiful church architecture and the construction of modern assembly halls. Even on those rare occasions when the TLM is done, there is no high alter, the pews are aligned makes ad orientum impossible for a layman's perspective, getting everyone to the middle to receive from the priest is extremely burdensome, etc. Hearing what happened back then, and why most churches built after Vatican 2 look like they do was really difficult for me. `
Vox Clamantis
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Faithful Ag said:

I think part of the disconnect you are seeing is that to receive the precious Blood from our knees increases as the chance that something might happen leading to spilling. With a physical altar rail that risk is significantly less, or when receiving both together (intinction).

I am a member at St. Anthony. Personally, I receive the Body from my knees and generally do not receive the Blood because of the "logistics". I agree there has been a significant, positive shift in reverence toward the Eucharist over the past 5+ years, specifically at St. Anthony. Fr. Jesse and Fr. David (Hust) brought patents back several years ago which helped a lot. Fr. David ( a little controversial due to his conservative, traditional views) really called attention to the casualness that the laity were bringing to Mass and the Eucharist. His impact is still being seen and felt even though he's been gone for a couple of years now. I miss Fr. David.

Next time you are at St. Anthony I'd encourage you to visit the Our Lady of Angels Chapel where we have hundreds of relics of Saints including pretty much all of the Apostles and Mary Magdalene, a piece of the veil of the Blessed Mother, and a piece of the True Cross. It's a great place to take a moment for some prayer and reflection.


WHAAAAAAAT! I'm an absolute junkie for relics, I had no idea
The Banned
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PabloSerna said:

" The case study for this was how many lay people the Church lost when the NO was instituted overnight"

Oh really? Been reading just the opposite. Maybe you can cite something more than a hunch?

ETA: I say a hunch, not to dismiss your point, but worldwide the RCC is much larger than it was post Vatican II. So I am trying to understand where you are coming from.

Catholics have been 17-18% of the worldwide population since 1900. Yes, the Church is larger today than it was then, but it's because there are far more humans today than there were then.

But it goes deeper. Prior to the NO, ~90% of Catholics believed in the real presence. Today that is ~30%

In 1960, 70-75% of Catholics went to Mass weekly
1970 it was 55-60%. The year the NO was instituted, there is a massive drop.
1980 is 45-50% In the decade immediately following, another significant drop
1990 is 35-40% Still dropping.
2000 we drop below 30% and been there ever since.

So not only have we not grown beyond what were (as a percentage of the population) we are radically less catechized than we once were. The recent shift towards tradition is increasing catechesis, increasing reverence and increasing belief in the Eucharist, THE source and summit of the faith. I pray that God keeps moving.
Faithful Ag
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Yes. We have one of the largest collections of relics in North America! The chapel was built so that the placement of the relic of the True Cross is oriented directly in line with the Tabernacle and the Altar of the main church. When you are approaching the Altar to receive the precious Body you are approaching the wood of the Cross.

Confession is typically done in the chapel confessionals and I love to kneel before the Cross and the relics to do my penance and pray. Its worth the time and effort.

https://www.ap.church/saints

FIDO95
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A beautiful reminder of what we are doing here.



If you're getting concerned about what others are doing at Mass turn your attention back to the crucifix and the tabernacle. At every service, at every parish there are whitewashed tombstones (Matt 23:27-28) and there are widows giving their copper coins (Luke 21:1-4). I'll leave it to Christ to decide who is performative in the grandeur and who is sacrificing to their best. We should go to worship, not to judge.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
747Ag
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Vox Clamantis said:

Faithful Ag said:

I think part of the disconnect you are seeing is that to receive the precious Blood from our knees increases as the chance that something might happen leading to spilling. With a physical altar rail that risk is significantly less, or when receiving both together (intinction).

I am a member at St. Anthony. Personally, I receive the Body from my knees and generally do not receive the Blood because of the "logistics". I agree there has been a significant, positive shift in reverence toward the Eucharist over the past 5+ years, specifically at St. Anthony. Fr. Jesse and Fr. David (Hust) brought patents back several years ago which helped a lot. Fr. David ( a little controversial due to his conservative, traditional views) really called attention to the casualness that the laity were bringing to Mass and the Eucharist. His impact is still being seen and felt even though he's been gone for a couple of years now. I miss Fr. David.

Next time you are at St. Anthony I'd encourage you to visit the Our Lady of Angels Chapel where we have hundreds of relics of Saints including pretty much all of the Apostles and Mary Magdalene, a piece of the veil of the Blessed Mother, and a piece of the True Cross. It's a great place to take a moment for some prayer and reflection.


WHAAAAAAAT! I'm an absolute junkie for relics, I had no idea

If you're ever in central Florida, my parish can hook you up too, bro.
Vox Clamantis
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747Ag said:

Vox Clamantis said:

Faithful Ag said:

I think part of the disconnect you are seeing is that to receive the precious Blood from our knees increases as the chance that something might happen leading to spilling. With a physical altar rail that risk is significantly less, or when receiving both together (intinction).

I am a member at St. Anthony. Personally, I receive the Body from my knees and generally do not receive the Blood because of the "logistics". I agree there has been a significant, positive shift in reverence toward the Eucharist over the past 5+ years, specifically at St. Anthony. Fr. Jesse and Fr. David (Hust) brought patents back several years ago which helped a lot. Fr. David ( a little controversial due to his conservative, traditional views) really called attention to the casualness that the laity were bringing to Mass and the Eucharist. His impact is still being seen and felt even though he's been gone for a couple of years now. I miss Fr. David.

Next time you are at St. Anthony I'd encourage you to visit the Our Lady of Angels Chapel where we have hundreds of relics of Saints including pretty much all of the Apostles and Mary Magdalene, a piece of the veil of the Blessed Mother, and a piece of the True Cross. It's a great place to take a moment for some prayer and reflection.


WHAAAAAAAT! I'm an absolute junkie for relics, I had no idea

If you're ever in central Florida, my parish can hook you up too, bro.


Relic maxxing
747Ag
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Vox Clamantis said:

747Ag said:

Vox Clamantis said:

Faithful Ag said:

I think part of the disconnect you are seeing is that to receive the precious Blood from our knees increases as the chance that something might happen leading to spilling. With a physical altar rail that risk is significantly less, or when receiving both together (intinction).

I am a member at St. Anthony. Personally, I receive the Body from my knees and generally do not receive the Blood because of the "logistics". I agree there has been a significant, positive shift in reverence toward the Eucharist over the past 5+ years, specifically at St. Anthony. Fr. Jesse and Fr. David (Hust) brought patents back several years ago which helped a lot. Fr. David ( a little controversial due to his conservative, traditional views) really called attention to the casualness that the laity were bringing to Mass and the Eucharist. His impact is still being seen and felt even though he's been gone for a couple of years now. I miss Fr. David.

Next time you are at St. Anthony I'd encourage you to visit the Our Lady of Angels Chapel where we have hundreds of relics of Saints including pretty much all of the Apostles and Mary Magdalene, a piece of the veil of the Blessed Mother, and a piece of the True Cross. It's a great place to take a moment for some prayer and reflection.


WHAAAAAAAT! I'm an absolute junkie for relics, I had no idea

If you're ever in central Florida, my parish can hook you up too, bro.


Relic maxxing

Based on conversations with my zoomer kids, I *think* this is a good thing.
fc2112
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I had no idea there were people sitting around judging my actions at Mass. But who cares?
Vox Clamantis
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fc2112 said:

I had no idea there were people sitting around judging my actions at Mass. But who cares?

are you the guy in the hawaiian shirt and flip flops who plays the liturgical ukelele in the praise band?
FIDO95
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AG
Vox Clamantis said:

fc2112 said:

I had no idea there were people sitting around judging my actions at Mass. But who cares?

are you the guy in the hawaiian shirt and flip flops who plays the liturgical ukelele in the praise band?




On a separate note, what an amazing collection of relics at St Anthony of Padua in the woodlands. Thanks for sharing that. I will definitely check it out next time I'm in the Houston area.
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PabloSerna
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Does the GRIM have no place in your recollection of significant Vatican II documents?
PabloSerna
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I'm glad people are finding the recent traditions (because even those you cite are revisions) helpful for their spiritual growth. Sacred art and architecture were designed to elevate one's spiritual experience, but it was never meant to be the end all. Just based on your words, you sound stuck in time. Unlike other faiths we are a church in motion.

Rubio alluded to the missionary aspect of the discovery of the New World. While not always a smooth transition, the Americas were ripe for this evangelization. More than a few legends of "The Lady in Blue" appearing to indigenous people or the backstory of Aztec songs that foreshadow the apparition of Our Lady to Juan Diego.

Think quilt and not so much melting pot.
The Banned
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PabloSerna said:

Does the GRIM have no place in your recollection of significant Vatican II documents?

........... the GIRM wasn't a vatican 2 document
The Banned
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PabloSerna said:

I'm glad people are finding the recent traditions (because even those you cite are revisions) helpful for their spiritual growth. Sacred art and architecture were designed to elevate one's spiritual experience, but it was never meant to be the end all. Just based on your words, you sound stuck in time. Unlike other faiths we are a church in motion.



Not at all. Just calling for the actual words of Vatican 2 to be carried out, not this nebulous "spirit" that has led to a mere 30% of Catholics believing in the real presence. The liturgy has changed multiple times since the beginning of the Church. It can change again, and Vatican 2 called for it. If I was some rad trad, you know I'd never say anything positive about Vatican 2. I'm not anti-NO

If you think the GIRM was a Vatican 2 document, (which, by the way, the original 1970 version did not call for versus populum, never said vernacular was required, etc) it would make sense why you don't think the average NO mass today is a departure from the Council. I don't think you know what the Council actually called for.
Faithful Ag
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Spot on. I have on occasion attended the Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter (Former Anglican now Catholic) Mass and in my view they offer the closest liturgy to what Vatican 2 called for save the language. Essentially their Liturgy is the Latin Mass in English (including the extra thys and thees). It is a beautiful liturgy done Ad Orientem and has some beautiful prayers before and after the Eucharist. They also do the last Gospel at the end of the Mass. The liturgy is what I wish we had in the NO. The Priest is leading the liturgy and the pace of the worship.

I would love to attend St. Mary's every week as I think Aggieland offers students the best of the NO liturgy. St. Mary's is the only place I have found where the music adds to my experience and draws me into deeper worship and doesn't seem so performative (which is funny to me because they have a full blown orchestra sometimes). But the music flows into the Liturgy almost seamlessly and the quality of the choir and musicians is amazing year over year over year! It also helps that most of the student are taking their faith seriously and are so reverent and less casual inside the Church.

While I think St. Anthony does a good NO, there are still many things that I often have to work through in my heart and mind to not be distracted or triggered. I often just close my eyes in prayer, and I have to ask for grace and mercy. But it is exhausting to go to Mass to worship trying to find PEACE only to find myself trying to just not get triggered. It can be a lot of work instead of worship which is a problem.

The NO generally lends itself to being too much stop start which makes it harder for me to fall into deeper worship and be able to remain in a deeper state. The natural flow of the NO is just….not very flowing. The transitions are not natural and feels disjointed and forced at times. And then when there could be a moment of silence or peace…we get the drums….
boom…..boom boom…….chit….
Boom…boom boom….chit chit…
boom…boom boom…crash.
Boom…boom boom…

The "increased involvement and participation" of the laity post Vatican 2 comes with a hefty price, and unfortunately the price is often paid silently and perhaps unknowingly by everyone else.
The Banned
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This. All of this.

Prior to experiencing reverent liturgy, I didn't understand the "smells and bells" accusation. Literally had no idea what that meant. After having experienced reverent liturgy, I'm sad that anyone would use that phrase in a negative way. I find it almost derogatory now.

As you said, the experience is peace. It's not entertaining in the slightest. It COMPLETELY lacks entertainment value. I'm not "getting anything out of it" nor am I "putting anything into it", in the best way possible. It's something else entirely, and I'm just happy that my family and I are there. Participation in the songs and chants come effortlessly. We are "present" in a way I haven't experienced before, and the hour passes like it's been 10 minutes. I pray everyone, regardless of parish or celebrant, can experience the same.

PabloSerna
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The Banned said:

PabloSerna said:

Does the GRIM have no place in your recollection of significant Vatican II documents?

........... the GIRM wasn't a vatican 2 document


No relationship whatsoever?
PabloSerna
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" I don't think you know what the Council actually called for."

Buddy- as we say, them's fighting words!

Let's just say, I have done a far share of studying with a group of professed laity for nearly 30 years. Let's not insult each other like that. We can disagree and civilly discuss the finer points of doctrine, but to say "you don't know?" - is sad.
Vox Clamantis
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PabloSerna said:

" I don't think you know what the Council actually called for."

Buddy- as we say, them's fighting words!

Let's just say, I have done a far share of studying with a group of professed laity for nearly 30 years. Let's not insult each other like that. We can disagree and civilly discuss the finer points of doctrine, but to say "you don't know?" - is sad.

That's right, if we're going to argue about Vatican II we should argue about why a Pastoral Council has generated so much hubbub with it's suggestions of how to engage the laity.
PabloSerna
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"I didn't understand the "smells and bells" accusation."

The danger lies in that we can be so consumed with the pageantry of our liturgy that we neglect the command from Christ to love one another and to our universal call to holiness. None of which requires ad orientem seating, Gregorian chant, or gilded decor.
Vox Clamantis
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PabloSerna said:

"I didn't understand the "smells and bells" accusation."

The danger lies in that we can be so consumed with the pageantry of our liturgy that we neglect the command from Christ to love one another and to our universal call to holiness. None of which requires ad orientem seating, Gregorian chant, or gilded decor.

Since when have we been a church of the bare minimum? You sound like a Protestant. "I don't need to go to church, I just need a personal relationship with God", "why do I need to do good things if I just attended an altar call"

We're spirit and flesh, how we act influences what we believe, influences how we live. Our priests wear Robes, They light candles, they distribute incense, they kneel, they kiss the altar, they wash their hands, they put a drop of water in the chalice.

The pageantry is all about God, and not about us.
RAB91
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I don't ask for much. I'd be happy if my parish just quit playing so much protestant praise and worship music and didn't use the the video screens for 100% of mass.
Faithful Ag
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I came across this discussion today and I found it really beneficial and helpful in my views around Vatican 2. As one who longs for a return to a more traditional and reverent liturgy, I think this conversation helps to frame the perspective of what was going on leading up to V2. It was not all roses pre-Vatican 2…the church has always had to deal with thorns.



PabloSerna
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Christ did not come to bring peace but a sword (Mt 10:34). Here is an account of one of the first masses, Jesus on the road to Emmaus:

25 He said to them, "How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?" 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

28 As they approached the village to which they were going, Jesus continued on as if he were going farther. 29 But they urged him strongly, "Stay with us, for it is nearly evening; the day is almost over." So he went in to stay with them.

30 When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. 31 Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight. 32 They asked each other, "Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?"

+++

If the reforms of Vatican II can be summed up into a phase, it is that we are each universally called to holiness. There is a time for private prayer, then there is public worship that should be real food for our souls.

Since we are sharing each others experience; my favorite experiences are those in which the homily enlightens me to see something Christ is calling me to reflect upon. Something I had only heard before but now hear more clearly. And then I enter into the passion of Christ in the Eucharist. Most of the time, I can't even hear the kids crying or tell you if the choir was in tune or not- I can remember some beautiful hymns - but they are secondary to the word- my heart is on fire!
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