Solid points.

Although AJs was from 2025 and Wentz and Jimenez were freak knee injuries that have nothing to do with arm care.

I'm also a Hokie - A&M knows nothing of bad things happening to their athletic department/teams comparatively, unfortunately for me.

Roster construction seems problematic but that also falls on Earley too. I guess you can't foresee some of what has happened but it was very clear that we had a talent deficit on the mound, even in the fall scrimmages.

Virginiaag16 said:

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Solid points.

Although AJs was from 2025 and Wentz and Jimenez were freak knee injuries that have nothing to do with arm care.

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Lacy's career is full of arm injuries as well. Easily could have happened on our watch if his Jr season wasn't cut short by COVID

The correct answer is probably a combination of everything you just mentioned.

It'll be interesting to see how Earley navigates getting substantially better on the mound while also having to replace Gavin, Sorrell, Hacopian, etc

Moss has flashes, McCoy while unproven I think will be good, but you need 2-3 more proven SPs and that comes with a price tag

aggieiniowa said:

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Throwing harder and throwing way more pitches at earlier ages with zero breaks for your arm to recover is one reason. You typically don't get to college and a pitching coach blows out your arm. It could be a factor but throwing for 11 months out of the year with travel ball from age 8-17 will do it.

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I agree with this. Kids at youth level can often get abused. The injuries can build over time. It may not be noticeable while in youth years but it can add up and then boom.

Sean98 said:

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Virginiaag16 said:

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Roster construction seems problematic but that also falls on Earley too. I guess you can't foresee some of what has happened but it was very clear that we had a talent deficit on the mound, even in the fall scrimmages.

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Roster construction on the mound was definitely problematic. And then McCoy goes down, Stewart goes down, Sdao doesn't bounce back from TJ and voila.

What none of us know is (1) is the lack of depth an inability to identify talent or recruit? Or is it a pure money battle what we didn't have enough money to divide between our offense and pitching staff? (Or just didn't properly allocate).

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Our basketball coach flying past his NIL budget didn't help things

Sean98 said:

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austinag1997 said:

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Sean98 said:

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There are potential things to question Kelly about but this isn't one of them. Period. This is symptomatic of the current state of baseball from travel ball all the way through the pros.

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Oh, I attribute it some to the high spin pitches. Pitchers of yesteryear overwhelmed you with high velo pitches. I think the high spin pitches contribute to this phenomenon. Like to hear some thoughts from others on this...

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It certainly plays a role but it's not that simple. Spin rates, and the way to increase them, vary by pitch type. It can be attributed to grip, arm speed, arm angle, arm manipulation. Some of those have higher level impacts on various joints than others.

But in general the velocity chase and hard breaking stuff (90+mph sliders vs 75mph curve balls) is definitely a huge part of the formula.

Go back 20 (does quick math ...), ok maybe 30 years ago and it was primarily 2 seam fastballs, 12-6 curves and changeups. Which I still believe is a very winning formula. Then it gradually became about riding 4 seamers at the top of the zone and power sliders that put a lot of stress on the elbow. Combine that with the workload of kids that specialize in baseball and don't play other sports and you've got a workload pile up.

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So, which pitch puts the most stress on the elbow? Out of respect for you, I'm not going to play gotcha, other posters, maybe.

In order of stress applied to the elbow, UCL
1. FASTBALL (2-seam, 4-seam doesn't matter)
2. SLIDER
3. CURVEBALL
4. CHANGE UP

It all has to do with maximum force being applied to an object and how each pitch changes that force, or doesn't transfer, or lessens that force.

Now teaching proper mechanics of each pitch is paramount and all should finish in pronation. That's where many young pitchers get in trouble and think they have too manufacture spin on offspeed pitches by supination, they don't. That puts unnecessary stress on the elbow.

I have a completely different theory on why we're seeing a dramatic rise in pitching injuries, and other injuries in sports, but that's for another discussion.

Quote:

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Our basketball coach flying past his NIL budget didn't help things

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Was this really a thing!?? If so why not just take it out of his gd salary!?

Sean98 said:

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Quote:

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Our basketball coach flying past his NIL budget didn't help things

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Was this really a thing!?? If so why not just take it out of his gd salary!?

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I thought he went to the donors and asked for roster NIL. He said if he didn't have funding, you may as well not have a team this year. Hard to believe that impacted baseball NIL.

I'd actually love to see the metrics on these, and I look forward to the future discussion you mention because I think I'll learn a lot and will enjoy it.

To be honest when I pitched we didn't have all the fancy gee-gaws and doo-dads they have today to measure everything that they do today. So I have no real idea what the metrics would say, or how it would impact what I tried to do.

Total "citizen science" here and not actual data but I feel that trying to execute certain pitches puts pitchers in a head space where they throw differently even if they shouldn't. That's probably not well said...

Let's see if this makes sense. I threw 2 seamers. My brain says you need to throw it at 85-90%. I'm counting on some sink and arm side run. If I try to redline my arm speed I know that ball is going to flatten and straighten out. Overthrowing actually makes the pitch worse. I know this because I saw 89-91 get missed while 94 got deposited over the wall. In my opinion this is why you see a guy like Lyons be a little nastier on day two when he's a little tired.

Counter that with a 4-seamer where you want max rpms to provide that "carry" at the top of the zone. You don't want the sink of a 2 seamer because you're coming down into the zone if you do. So in your head you're thinking "max effort, crisp clean release." In addition to the additional effort it can lead to a more pronounced action from the wrist down. Not because it should, as you suggested it shouldn't... But your brain tells you that you need to release it differently.

That's even more pronounced on the breaking pitches where on a big pitch you feel you really have to snap one off. You even hear that terminology a lot (a big mistake in my opinion). I was a firm believer that wrist angle could be used to impact spin and axis tilt, but there shouldn't be and significant twist at release. First off it's too hard to replicate consistently. Sort of like have overly active hands in a golf swing. If you time it perfect you may get a lot of distance but it's also real easy to snap hook it. You still see this a lot though. A great slider for strike 2... rather than throw the same pitch for strike 3, or the same pitch with an aim point 4" further to your glove side you see the pitcher absolutely yank one and hit the batter in the foot. That's your brain making you over exaggerate the release putting more strain on joints.

This is where I think the pitching labs actually COULD help the pitcher. Provide data to prove to me that certain motions or efforts are actually counterproductive... And yet I fear they'll act like speedometers where 20 year old male athletes will only focus on redlining the RPMs. I mean how many times have you heard this weekend, "he has a spin rate of 2600 on his slider and the average MLB spin rate is under 2500..." Ok, then why are you in a college bullpen and not on the Yankees? Because spin rate, while important, ain't everything. And I'm certain cases, trying to max out that spin rate is unhealthy and unproductive from an actual pitching standpoint.

I've gotten scattered and gone far afield here. It actually may not make any sense but I've typed it all so it's getting posted anyway.

Edit/Side Note: I'd love to hear the physics on the changeup being easiest on the arm. Is it simply because you have more surface area contact? Because I threw a change as hard as I threw my FB from an arm perspective. In fact, I considered that critical to the pitch deception. It was solely the grip and extra hand/ball surface area contact that provided the loss in speed.

Sean98 said:

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Virginiaag16 said:

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Roster construction seems problematic but that also falls on Earley too. I guess you can't foresee some of what has happened but it was very clear that we had a talent deficit on the mound, even in the fall scrimmages.

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Roster construction on the mound was definitely problematic. And then McCoy goes down, Stewart goes down, Sdao doesn't bounce back from TJ and voila.

What none of us know is (1) is the lack of depth an inability to identify talent or recruit? Or is it a pure money battle what we didn't have enough money to divide between our offense and pitching staff? (Or just didn't properly allocate).

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I'm not sure but every other top half SEC team has a roster loaded with pitchers throwing 96. We just don't have that. I suspect we are spending too much on women's sports tbh. Programs like Georgia don't do this. We have a lot of money but we don't have as much as Texas. We have to focus on the sports we care about most and right now it doesn't appear that baseball is one of them.

I appreciate the insight.

austinag1997 said:

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I appreciate the insight.

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It's worth exactly what it cost ya.

The Marksman said:

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Kelly should be fired because he's one of the worst pitching coaches in the entire country, not because injuries are his fault

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One of the worst based on what? I'm not advocating for JK, but I'm not going to say he's one of the worst. Sims made a huge jump, Moss's problem appears between the ears, cause he's had a couple great outings. Not sure JK is a shrink. A few freshmen are also coming along. Like I said, I'm neither here nor there on JK.

Yes, y'all are

Ironically, Sims did it 3 times. Including his 2nd start of the year on a cold day in February. One other time over 90.

Moss hasn't eclipsed 100 but he topped at 98 and has 4 outings above 90 pitches.

Shane has gone over 100 twice, topping at 112.

My question was more what do they do when they're not pitching. You can be overworked in non-game action. Not saying that we are or aren't.

We can have this discussion later, but sooner, if we can agree to work under a mutual understanding we're both old (me older) and we're both idiots, I know I am. And yes, I'm joking..... or am I?

Only thing I'll address in your post at this time is the 85-90% mentality. Maybe, it was having an unconscious effect on your arm speed. Think hitting and telling a hitter facing a hard thrower, you tell them to slow down to speed up.

RGLAG85 said:

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We can have this discussion later, but sooner, if we can agree to work under a mutual understanding we're both old (me older) and we're both idiots, I know I am. And yes, I'm joking..... or am I?

Only thing I'll address in your post at this time is the 85-90% mentality. Maybe, it was having an unconscious effect on your arm speed. Think hitting and telling a hitter facing a hard thrower, you tell them to slow down to speed up.

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#TeamIdiot