Yeah, it is quite the mystery, huh? The people who don't want to mow their own yards or clean their own toilets...nor pay true market rates to have someone do it for them are also similarly stumped.

Quote:

---

The New York Times ran a piece a few days ago seeking to understand where all the American-born roofers went, struggling to understand how an industry that used to provide well-paying career jobs is now overwhelmingly staffed by poorly-paid "immigrants."

There are not many pieces to this puzzle, and the Times successfully analyzes each of the pieces, but it somehow cannot put these few puzzle pieces together to provide the obvious conclusion. The reason, of course, is that American-born roofers, many of whom were unionized construction workers, were replaced by poorly paid illegal aliens providing off-the-books labor while also being denied benefits, health insurance, and compliance with labor laws.

Something I keep harping on is the war on labor expense in this country. Businesses obviously need to focus on cost control, including the cost of labor, but somewhere in recent decades, we have seen a dangerous mindset take hold. It has become widely accepted that pretty much any labor expense is too high, and if labor can't be offshored to places with wages and work conditions below American standards, then illegal forms of chattel labor need to be imported into the U.S.

---

Link to AOSHQ.

I've roofed or helped roof several houses and a barn. It is not fun in some weather conditions, for sure. As much as it costs, I'll probably be roofing my own house next time it needs it. It's not difficult, just miserable in summer or very cold weather.

As someone who has part ownership in a commercial & residential roofing company, it's also a trickle down. GCs are squeezing roofing companies wanting to subcontract the roofing scope out to the lowest bidder most of the time. Along with several other trades. That said, all of our guys are citizens and our main commercial flat roof crew is a 50 year old from Mexico who has been here 30 years and his 4 sons.

Yeah, I'm not roofing my own house. F' that noise.

However, I am releasing our lawn crew next month and I'll be mowing my own yard again now that I have the free time. And I do most of my own landscape.

Lots of Hispanics bemoaning ICE deportations are saying "y'all won't be enjoying Mexican food because all the cooks are gone."
At the so called "real Mexican places", I would like to know how much they pay those immigrants.

In my area, used to be white boy owners and workers, then white boy owners and mexicans/white boy workers, then white boy owners with mexican workers and is now mexican owners/mexican workers.

I think we just found yet another job for our Humanoid Robot overlords to do!



Juan and Jose hardest hit.

David_Puddy said:

---

As someone who has part ownership in a commercial & residential roofing company, it's also a trickle down. GCs are squeezing roofing companies wanting to subcontract the roofing scope out to the lowest bidder most of the time. Along with several other trades. That said, all of our guys are citizens and our main commercial flat roof crew is a 50 year old from Mexico who has been here 30 years and his 4 sons.

---

The three "roofing companies" I know are killing it. Charging and getting huge returns from these insurance companies. If you aren't you haven't taken the right people on enough fishing trips or "Golf Outings" in Vegas.

They then turn around and work with actual roofers who run crews of illegals to do the work.

They make crazy maxed out money, insurance is out of control and immigrants don't make **** and it kills off skilled native labor.

I have two good buddies that roof and they both live in 5 million plus homes. Not counting boats and other property.

You might be doing it wrong if you are claiming anything other than stupid profits.

Roofing is one of the few major construction services where there are no licensing authorities.

You are much less likely to have an all-illegal crew for electricians, plumbers, HVAC, because there is at least once licensed person in there that has to be a US citizen in order to get a license.

Not so with roofers. It's the wild-west.

I hate, hate, hate the licensing industry, and think that it just creates a ton of rent-seeking behavior, but the one silver lining is that SOMEONE has to be a US citizen somewhere down the line in order to get insurance and be able to sign off on work.

CrackerJackAg said:

---

David_Puddy said:

---

As someone who has part ownership in a commercial & residential roofing company, it's also a trickle down. GCs are squeezing roofing companies wanting to subcontract the roofing scope out to the lowest bidder most of the time. Along with several other trades. That said, all of our guys are citizens and our main commercial flat roof crew is a 50 year old from Mexico who has been here 30 years and his 4 sons.

---

The three "roofing companies" I know are killing it. Charging and getting huge returns from these insurance companies. If you aren't you haven't taken the right people on enough fishing trips or "Golf Outings" in Vegas.

They then turn around and work with actual roofers who run crews of illegals to do the work.

They make crazy maxed out money, insurance is out of control and immigrants don't make **** and it kills off skilled native labor.

I have two good buddies that roof and they both live in 5 million plus homes. Not counting boats and other property.

You might be doing it wrong if you are claiming anything other than stupid profits.

---

Yeah, so I'm not quite sure the purpose of your rant there, but I never said our business wasn't doing well. I know a few of those same people you describe and that's a completely different business than what we do. Those people have a bunch of commission only door knockers working for them who go out and knock doors of homeowners and inspect roofs and get an insurance adjustor out there to try and get a claim payout. They also get in with big home builders, they don't pay their roofers anything and their employees are most likely illegals. Insurance claim payouts in Texas are starting to get a lot stricter because of these companies and are changing what qualifies homeowners to get a fully paid new roof. I imagine the storm chasing roofing companies will start to see their profits take a hit over the next few years because of it.

For every person like your 2 buddies who live in 5 million dollar homes, there are 100 other companies that don't and struggle to make a good profit. The residential roofing game has become quite saturated with people hearing of these types of stories and starting a roofing company and finding out the hard way. Exact same as the realtor market. But good on your buddies, and I'm going to bet they got in well before the big influx of roofing companies to the market and built out a big team of door to door salesman. Most of those companies have a lot of turnover because of not having a guaranteed paycheck.

But thanks for letting me know that I'm doing it wrong because that isn't our business model.

David_Puddy said:

---

CrackerJackAg said:

---

David_Puddy said:

---

As someone who has part ownership in a commercial & residential roofing company, it's also a trickle down. GCs are squeezing roofing companies wanting to subcontract the roofing scope out to the lowest bidder most of the time. Along with several other trades. That said, all of our guys are citizens and our main commercial flat roof crew is a 50 year old from Mexico who has been here 30 years and his 4 sons.

---

The three "roofing companies" I know are killing it. Charging and getting huge returns from these insurance companies. If you aren't you haven't taken the right people on enough fishing trips or "Golf Outings" in Vegas.

They then turn around and work with actual roofers who run crews of illegals to do the work.

They make crazy maxed out money, insurance is out of control and immigrants don't make **** and it kills off skilled native labor.

I have two good buddies that roof and they both live in 5 million plus homes. Not counting boats and other property.

You might be doing it wrong if you are claiming anything other than stupid profits.

---

Yeah, so I'm not quite sure the purpose of your rant there, but I never said our business wasn't doing well. I know a few of those same people you describe and that's a completely different business than what we do. Those people have a bunch of commission only door knockers working for them who go out and knock doors of homeowners and inspect roofs and get an insurance adjustor out there to try and get a claim payout. They also get in with big home builders, they don't pay their roofers anything and their employees are most likely illegals. Insurance claim payouts in Texas are starting to get a lot stricter because of these companies and are changing what qualifies homeowners to get a fully paid new roof. I imagine the storm chasing roofing companies will start to see their profits take a hit over the next few years because of it.

For every person like your 2 buddies who live in 5 million dollar homes, there are 100 other companies that don't and struggle to make a good profit. The residential roofing game has become quite saturated with people hearing of these types of stories and starting a roofing company and finding out the hard way. Exact same as the realtor market. But good on your buddies, and I'm going to bet they got in well before the big influx of roofing companies to the market and built out a big team of door to door salesman. Most of those companies have a lot of turnover because of not having a guaranteed paycheck.

But thanks for letting me know that I'm doing it wrong because that isn't our business model.

---

All good.

It was more a ***** against the other business models creating the issue. Poorly constructed it tongue in cheek I suppose. Wasn't really an attack on you.

Owlagdad said:

---

Lots of Hispanics bemoaning ICE deportations are saying "y'all won't be enjoying Mexican food because all the cooks are gone."
At the so called "real Mexican places", I would like to know how much they pay those immigrants.

---

Dont threaten me with a good time.

I'll trade Mexican food for getting rid of all the illegals any day. There were good Mexican restaurants in Texas long before we were overrun with freeloading illegals.

BusterAg said:

---

Roofing is one of the few major construction services where there are no licensing authorities.

You are much less likely to have an all-illegal crew for electricians, plumbers, HVAC, because there is at least once licensed person in there that has to be a US citizen in order to get a license.

Not so with roofers. It's the wild-west.

I hate, hate, hate the licensing industry, and think that it just creates a ton of rent-seeking behavior, but the one silver lining is that SOMEONE has to be a US citizen somewhere down the line in order to get insurance and be able to sign off on work.

---

I can understand not liking unnecessary licensing, but can you explain how it promotes rent seeking behavior for the blue collar trades?

My lawn mower is a white guy called Dan. He does a great job, I trust him, he is honest and hard working.

Not to say Mexicans aren't.

We need to encourage hard working Americans like Dan.

Way up here in NE Pennsylvania I've had home building contractors, exterior contractors (patio, etc), landscaping contractors, HVAC, generator install and service, handymen and a few years back when it was exclusively our second home, lawn mowing services (I do it now). Nothing but white guys and a couple of white women all told. It's a product of living in a rural area that still has young white people taking these kind of jobs. There's not a lot of opportunity for white collar jobs around here though

Ellis Wyatt said:

---

Owlagdad said:

---

Lots of Hispanics bemoaning ICE deportations are saying "y'all won't be enjoying Mexican food because all the cooks are gone."
At the so called "real Mexican places", I would like to know how much they pay those immigrants.

---

Dont threaten me with a good time.

I'll trade Mexican food for getting rid of all the illegals any day. There were good Mexican restaurants in Texas long before we were overrun with freeloading illegals.

---

It is well known that no American citizen of any descent or lineage can cook ethnic food.

It is unpossible.

infinity ag said:

---

My lawn mower is a white guy called Dan. He does a great job, I trust him, he is honest and hard working.

Not to say Mexicans aren't.

We need to encourage hard working Americans like Dan.

---

My lawnmower is a red guy named Honda.

infinity ag said:

---

My lawn mower is a white guy called Dan. He does a great job, I trust him, he is honest and hard working.

Not to say Mexicans aren't.

We need to encourage hard working Americans like Dan.

---

The lack of teenagers, particularly boys, doing basic lawn services these days is beyond staggering. When I had my mowing "business," I clawed, scratched and fought for every account I could get. Even then, I still topped out at about 15 (admittedly, based on my model, that was about max) but getting more than that would have required a lot more work, referrals, and additional help which didn't work out when I had them. I (or my hypothetical teenage son) could get a dozen accounts on my street alone THIS MONTH -- well, after the storm. Just about everyone around here would gladly dump their service for a local kid that does good work and is dependable. Plus, he's probably a few dollars cheaper.

Me, my next door neighbor, and (sometimes) the guy across the street are the only ones on our street that mow our own yards. I and the guy across the street have had services from time to time. Everyone else (30-ish houses) have a service. When I was a teenager, out of 50-ish houses in very easy walking distance, maybe 3 or 4 didn't do their own yards. I would get 1 of those easy, 2 additional if I was lucky or kept at it year after year.

91AggieLawyer said:

---

infinity ag said:

---

My lawn mower is a white guy called Dan. He does a great job, I trust him, he is honest and hard working.

Not to say Mexicans aren't.

We need to encourage hard working Americans like Dan.

---

The lack of teenagers, particularly boys, doing basic lawn services these days is beyond staggering. When I had my mowing "business," I clawed, scratched and fought for every account I could get. Even then, I still topped out at about 15 (admittedly, based on my model, that was about max) but getting more than that would have required a lot more work, referrals, and additional help which didn't work out when I had them. I (or my hypothetical teenage son) could get a dozen accounts on my street alone THIS MONTH -- well, after the storm. Just about everyone around here would gladly dump their service for a local kid that does good work and is dependable. Plus, he's probably a few dollars cheaper.

Me, my next door neighbor, and (sometimes) the guy across the street are the only ones on our street that mow our own yards. I and the guy across the street have had services from time to time. Everyone else (30-ish houses) have a service. When I was a teenager, out of 50-ish houses in very easy walking distance, maybe 3 or 4 didn't do their own yards. I would get 1 of those easy, 2 additional if I was lucky or kept at it year after year.

---

You are right.
Dan is about 55, which is in some ways a bit sad as he mows the lawns himself. He also has health issues and was hospitalized a few years ago and told my friend that he almost died. He should be hiring younger kids to do it or something like that. On a few occasions he brought in his son to help him but not regularly.

One learns a lot of business and customer skills through small businesses like this. But maybe the need is no longer there as everyone wants to work for big businesses like Amazon, Google, Meta.

I mowed my own lawn from 2010 to 2020 and stopped because I got busier and would miss some weeks and grass would be knee high. I shovel my own drive way even now, with a snowblower for the past few years. Saves money and I get some exercise and I love doing it.

I am pushing my kids to start a lawn service. Great way to make money as a teen and learn business skills, not to mention i think a lot of folks would appreciate paying a kid to do their yard.

AggieGunslinger said:

---

I am pushing my kids to start a lawn service. Great way to make money as a teen and learn business skills, not to mention i think a lot of folks would appreciate paying a kid to do their yard.

---

My kid has some admits and will go to college this Fall. What about summer? I am going to have her work at a local ice cream shop or a Dairy Queen. Sure, it's not a small business that she will run, but I hope she learns some customer skills which is very important. My wife wants to find her an "internship" at a company but I am arguing that money doesn't matter, she will get to do office stuff for the rest of her life, but she won't work at a DQ when she is older. I worked at the Albertson's on University Dr during my A&M days for about 2 months, it was an eye opening experience. I still have my Albertson's badge and shirt after 30 years.

PS: Does anyone remember the kind old guy called "Robert" who worked the night shift at the Albertson's, mid 90s, on University Drive (the building no longer exists).

MouthBQ98 said:

---

I've roofed or helped roof several houses and a barn. It is not fun in some weather conditions, for sure. As much as it costs, I'll probably be roofing my own house next time it needs it. It's not difficult, just miserable in summer or very cold weather.

---

When I was a young CDUB, I helped my dad reroof our house twice. I'll gladly pay someone to do it.

CrackerJackAg said:

---

David_Puddy said:

---

As someone who has part ownership in a commercial & residential roofing company, it's also a trickle down. GCs are squeezing roofing companies wanting to subcontract the roofing scope out to the lowest bidder most of the time. Along with several other trades. That said, all of our guys are citizens and our main commercial flat roof crew is a 50 year old from Mexico who has been here 30 years and his 4 sons.

---

The three "roofing companies" I know are killing it. Charging and getting huge returns from these insurance companies. If you aren't you haven't taken the right people on enough fishing trips or "Golf Outings" in Vegas.

They then turn around and work with actual roofers who run crews of illegals to do the work.

They make crazy maxed out money, insurance is out of control and immigrants don't make **** and it kills off skilled native labor.

I have two good buddies that roof and they both live in 5 million plus homes. Not counting boats and other property.

You might be doing it wrong if you are claiming anything other than stupid profits.

---

I've owned a roofing company for 16 years. The laborers are making very good money. Guys are making 80-100k in their mid to late twenties and can't even read. For a long time Americans were doing the work way up North. The quality of the work was much better, the companies making great profits, young men had solid incomes. They've also been displaced now by illegals. It sucks. I've been trying to tell people for years that Americans should be doing this. The margins remain the same for roofers, cost goes up, price goes up. It's that simple

YouBet said:

---

I am releasing our lawn crew next month ...

---

Holding people hostage is a no-no!!

12thAngryMan said:

---

BusterAg said:

---

Roofing is one of the few major construction services where there are no licensing authorities.

You are much less likely to have an all-illegal crew for electricians, plumbers, HVAC, because there is at least once licensed person in there that has to be a US citizen in order to get a license.

Not so with roofers. It's the wild-west.

I hate, hate, hate the licensing industry, and think that it just creates a ton of rent-seeking behavior, but the one silver lining is that SOMEONE has to be a US citizen somewhere down the line in order to get insurance and be able to sign off on work.

---

I can understand not liking unnecessary licensing, but can you explain how it promotes rent seeking behavior for the blue collar trades?

---

The concept is great. The execution is crap. My main gripe is the apprenticeship model.

The way they stand now, they create unnecessary barriers to new entrants. Here is the requirements to be a licensed electrician:

Quote:

---

• Meet Basic Requirements: Be at least 16-18 years old and hold a high school diploma or GED.
• Register as an Apprentice: Apply for an apprentice license with the state board (e.g., TDLR in Texas) to begin legally working under a master electrician.
• Complete Training & Education: Accumulate 8,000 hours (approx. 4 years) of on-the-job training and roughly 576 hours of classroom instruction.
• Pass the Journeyman Exam: After gaining required experience, pass a state-approved exam covering the National Electrical Code (NEC), safety, and electrical theory.

---

You can't fix an electrical socket on an ice-cream truck without sign-off by a licensed electrician. The combination of needing a permit to take a leak and exorbitant work experience required to get a license just drive up costs for everyone.

For example, in the age of youtube, I shouldn't have to have an HVAC license to buy a capacitor that I know is out on my AC unit and that I have a great video on how to do fix. Something that should cost me $2 to fix requires a $300 trip from my HVAC guy.

At this point, most of the regulations around licensing in the trades are outdated.

Not that, if you relaxed the requirements for licensing, trade licensing would go away. Most commercial builders would still want master tradesman to sign off on projects. But this requirement of a 4 year apprenticeship that is prevalent in the trades is just a way for the insiders to make more money off of people wanting to enter the industry.

The worst my yard ever looked was when I had someone mowing it. I thought it would leave more time to do the funner stuff. Instead, I began to neglect all of it.

Credible Source said:

---

CrackerJackAg said:

---

David_Puddy said:

---

As someone who has part ownership in a commercial & residential roofing company, it's also a trickle down. GCs are squeezing roofing companies wanting to subcontract the roofing scope out to the lowest bidder most of the time. Along with several other trades. That said, all of our guys are citizens and our main commercial flat roof crew is a 50 year old from Mexico who has been here 30 years and his 4 sons.

---

The three "roofing companies" I know are killing it. Charging and getting huge returns from these insurance companies. If you aren't you haven't taken the right people on enough fishing trips or "Golf Outings" in Vegas.

They then turn around and work with actual roofers who run crews of illegals to do the work.

They make crazy maxed out money, insurance is out of control and immigrants don't make **** and it kills off skilled native labor.

I have two good buddies that roof and they both live in 5 million plus homes. Not counting boats and other property.

You might be doing it wrong if you are claiming anything other than stupid profits.

---

I've owned a roofing company for 16 years. The laborers are making very good money. Guys are making 80-100k in their mid to late twenties and can't even read. For a long time Americans were doing the work way up North. The quality of the work was much better, the companies making great profits, young men had solid incomes. They've also been displaced now by illegals. It sucks. I've been trying to tell people for years that Americans should be doing this. The margins remain the same for roofers, cost goes up, price goes up. It's that simple

---

$80k is not enough to be a year-round roofer in Houston. You take 3 years off your life for every summer you spend on top of those roofs.

But, $80k is a fortune to a guy from Juarez.

So, I think we are on the same page.

Squadron7 said:

---

I thought it would leave more time to do the funner stuff.

---

Do you even English!?

"More funner". Duh!

BigRobSA said:

---

Squadron7 said:

---

I thought it would leave more time to do the funner stuff.

---

Do you even English!?

"More funner". Duh!

---

Now you see why we are losing jobs to H1Bs.

(I kid)

Ellis Wyatt said:

---

Owlagdad said:

---

Lots of Hispanics bemoaning ICE deportations are saying "y'all won't be enjoying Mexican food because all the cooks are gone."
At the so called "real Mexican places", I would like to know how much they pay those immigrants.

---

Dont threaten me with a good time.

I'll trade Mexican food for getting rid of all the illegals any day. There were good Mexican restaurants in Texas long before we were overrun with freeloading illegals.

---

You either have very low food standards or are joking. Lemme guess. Lupe Tortilla is good Mexican food in your book??

BusterAg said:

---

Roofing is one of the few major construction services where there are no licensing authorities.

You are much less likely to have an all-illegal crew for electricians, plumbers, HVAC, because there is at least once licensed person in there that has to be a US citizen in order to get a license.

Not so with roofers. It's the wild-west.

I hate, hate, hate the licensing industry, and think that it just creates a ton of rent-seeking behavior, but the one silver lining is that SOMEONE has to be a US citizen somewhere down the line in order to get insurance and be able to sign off on work.

---

Well, that and you have an avenue to pursue bad actors in states like Texas with strong homestead and debtor protections. If a guy takes money for a job and stops showing up 1/4 through, you can sue him and get judgements all day long, but collecting and actually getting your money is something else.

With licensing, you can at least attempt to have their license revoked. In a perfect world those guys would go out of business because of bad reviews or reputation, but in the real world they simply change their company name and start anew or give themselves enough fake reviews to offset the real ones.

Bring in an uneducated third world work force that will do any job for peanuts and then blame American citizens for eschewing the low pay jobs. Sounds orchestrated, but I'm just a conspiracy nut.

Owlagdad said:

---

Lots of Hispanics bemoaning ICE deportations are saying "y'all won't be enjoying Mexican food because all the cooks are gone."
At the so called "real Mexican places", I would like to know how much they pay those immigrants.

---

They pay Asians in those kitchens to cook Mexican food. No problema.

I mowed a lot of yards as a kid. My dad would go inspect my work, sometimes after the people had already paid me. If he noticed even the slightest thing wrong, he would make me go back and fix it.

During breaks at A&M, I worked for a professional landscaping company. That was tough work until I had enough experience to drive the Yazoo.

MouthBQ98 said:

---

I've roofed or helped roof several houses and a barn. It is not fun in some weather conditions, for sure. As much as it costs, I'll probably be roofing my own house next time it needs it. It's not difficult, just miserable in summer or very cold weather.

---

Just start at 4:00 am and call it a day around 11