Howdy, it is me! said:
I love Job! It's a top book of the Bible for me hands down. Immensely rich. Not taught or mediated on enough, in my opinion.
It also holds my most favorite chapters of scripture - chapters 38-39. Phew, those just leave me in such awe of His power and majesty.
And some of my favorites verses:
Job 2:3…"Have you considered my servant Job?…
Job 2:10 …Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?"…
Job 13:15 Though he slay me, yet will I hope in him.
And then, the last chapter, Job 42:3… Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.
Check out Where Were You by Ghost Ship.
I truly could say so much about this book so if you have more specific questions maybe I could take a try at answering. In general, this book shows us that we must praise God for whatever He does with what is His. It shows us that sometimes our suffering is beyond us and is a battle of the spiritual realm. Job is also a type of Christ.
One key to understanding this book is knowing that Job and his friends believed in the retribution principle: the worse your sins, the greater your punishment. That shapes much of what is said by them all. This book shows how that principle is inaccurate. In God's presence, Job realized they had all been operating on an incorrect theological assumption.
We learn throughout scripture why there is discipline and suffering:
1. Retribution
2. Testing and chastisement
3. Reinforcement and confirmation of our faith
4. Witness to the truth; for the sake of Christ
5. To glorify God
Our faith begins at the point we don't have understanding.
TPS_Report said:Howdy, it is me! said:
I love Job! It's a top book of the Bible for me hands down. Immensely rich. Not taught or mediated on enough, in my opinion.
It also holds my most favorite chapters of scripture - chapters 38-39. Phew, those just leave me in such awe of His power and majesty.
And some of my favorites verses:
Job 2:3…"Have you considered my servant Job?…
Job 2:10 …Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?"…
Job 13:15 Though he slay me, yet will I hope in him.
And then, the last chapter, Job 42:3… Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.
Check out Where Were You by Ghost Ship.
I truly could say so much about this book so if you have more specific questions maybe I could take a try at answering. In general, this book shows us that we must praise God for whatever He does with what is His. It shows us that sometimes our suffering is beyond us and is a battle of the spiritual realm. Job is also a type of Christ.
One key to understanding this book is knowing that Job and his friends believed in the retribution principle: the worse your sins, the greater your punishment. That shapes much of what is said by them all. This book shows how that principle is inaccurate. In God's presence, Job realized they had all been operating on an incorrect theological assumption.
We learn throughout scripture why there is discipline and suffering:
1. Retribution
2. Testing and chastisement
3. Reinforcement and confirmation of our faith
4. Witness to the truth; for the sake of Christ
5. To glorify God
Our faith begins at the point we don't have understanding.
Gambling is Godly - Job 1: 9-12
I don't see how anyone can read Job and see it as anything more that a complete win for Satan. I think we'd agree that Satan works to make all people suffer.
However, there is one small group he has been unable to mess with and it's driving him nuts. He really wants to see these people suffer. So while he's making everyone else suffer, he's also trying to figure out how to get these dang Job-sters. Then it hits him... God is a degenerate gambler. All he'd have to do is bet God that Job will renounce him and God will immediately bite.
So Satan travels to meet God. God ask Satan what he's been up to and Satan says, "Wandering about". God brags about Job's piety. Satan then bets him that Job will renounce God if his protection is removed and bad things can happen to him. God says, "You're on!", and promptly allows Satan to harrow Job's family and his estate. Satan LOVES this. He's finally getting to harm the people he couldn't reach. Except for Job himself. He still can't touch Job.
After Satan is done scourging Job's family and estate, Job refuses to renounce God. And while this makes God happy, it makes Satan even happier, because now he can bet God again. And he knows God can't resist gambling. So Satan bets God that Job will renounce him if God's protection is removed from his person. God again says "You're on!" and Satan quickly sets to work giving Job the business. Absolute misery! Just what Satan loves. He even gets to watch Job's pals rag on him and twist the knife!
In the end, God believes he's won the bet because Job never completely turned his back on God. Of course, God had to speak to Job directly to keep him in line. Meanwhile, Satan goes back to making everyone else suffer content in the knowledge that God's protection can be removed with a simple wager.
Howdy, it is me! said:TPS_Report said:Howdy, it is me! said:
I love Job! It's a top book of the Bible for me hands down. Immensely rich. Not taught or mediated on enough, in my opinion.
It also holds my most favorite chapters of scripture - chapters 38-39. Phew, those just leave me in such awe of His power and majesty.
And some of my favorites verses:
Job 2:3…"Have you considered my servant Job?…
Job 2:10 …Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?"…
Job 13:15 Though he slay me, yet will I hope in him.
And then, the last chapter, Job 42:3… Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.
Check out Where Were You by Ghost Ship.
I truly could say so much about this book so if you have more specific questions maybe I could take a try at answering. In general, this book shows us that we must praise God for whatever He does with what is His. It shows us that sometimes our suffering is beyond us and is a battle of the spiritual realm. Job is also a type of Christ.
One key to understanding this book is knowing that Job and his friends believed in the retribution principle: the worse your sins, the greater your punishment. That shapes much of what is said by them all. This book shows how that principle is inaccurate. In God's presence, Job realized they had all been operating on an incorrect theological assumption.
We learn throughout scripture why there is discipline and suffering:
1. Retribution
2. Testing and chastisement
3. Reinforcement and confirmation of our faith
4. Witness to the truth; for the sake of Christ
5. To glorify God
Our faith begins at the point we don't have understanding.
Gambling is Godly - Job 1: 9-12
I don't see how anyone can read Job and see it as anything more that a complete win for Satan. I think we'd agree that Satan works to make all people suffer.
However, there is one small group he has been unable to mess with and it's driving him nuts. He really wants to see these people suffer. So while he's making everyone else suffer, he's also trying to figure out how to get these dang Job-sters. Then it hits him... God is a degenerate gambler. All he'd have to do is bet God that Job will renounce him and God will immediately bite.
So Satan travels to meet God. God ask Satan what he's been up to and Satan says, "Wandering about". God brags about Job's piety. Satan then bets him that Job will renounce God if his protection is removed and bad things can happen to him. God says, "You're on!", and promptly allows Satan to harrow Job's family and his estate. Satan LOVES this. He's finally getting to harm the people he couldn't reach. Except for Job himself. He still can't touch Job.
After Satan is done scourging Job's family and estate, Job refuses to renounce God. And while this makes God happy, it makes Satan even happier, because now he can bet God again. And he knows God can't resist gambling. So Satan bets God that Job will renounce him if God's protection is removed from his person. God again says "You're on!" and Satan quickly sets to work giving Job the business. Absolute misery! Just what Satan loves. He even gets to watch Job's pals rag on him and twist the knife!
In the end, God believes he's won the bet because Job never completely turned his back on God. Of course, God had to speak to Job directly to keep him in line. Meanwhile, Satan goes back to making everyone else suffer content in the knowledge that God's protection can be removed with a simple wager.
Ah, I see I was baited. I obviously disagree.
TPS_Report said:Howdy, it is me! said:TPS_Report said:Howdy, it is me! said:
I love Job! It's a top book of the Bible for me hands down. Immensely rich. Not taught or mediated on enough, in my opinion.
It also holds my most favorite chapters of scripture - chapters 38-39. Phew, those just leave me in such awe of His power and majesty.
And some of my favorites verses:
Job 2:3…"Have you considered my servant Job?…
Job 2:10 …Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?"…
Job 13:15 Though he slay me, yet will I hope in him.
And then, the last chapter, Job 42:3… Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.
Check out Where Were You by Ghost Ship.
I truly could say so much about this book so if you have more specific questions maybe I could take a try at answering. In general, this book shows us that we must praise God for whatever He does with what is His. It shows us that sometimes our suffering is beyond us and is a battle of the spiritual realm. Job is also a type of Christ.
One key to understanding this book is knowing that Job and his friends believed in the retribution principle: the worse your sins, the greater your punishment. That shapes much of what is said by them all. This book shows how that principle is inaccurate. In God's presence, Job realized they had all been operating on an incorrect theological assumption.
We learn throughout scripture why there is discipline and suffering:
1. Retribution
2. Testing and chastisement
3. Reinforcement and confirmation of our faith
4. Witness to the truth; for the sake of Christ
5. To glorify God
Our faith begins at the point we don't have understanding.
Gambling is Godly - Job 1: 9-12
I don't see how anyone can read Job and see it as anything more that a complete win for Satan. I think we'd agree that Satan works to make all people suffer.
However, there is one small group he has been unable to mess with and it's driving him nuts. He really wants to see these people suffer. So while he's making everyone else suffer, he's also trying to figure out how to get these dang Job-sters. Then it hits him... God is a degenerate gambler. All he'd have to do is bet God that Job will renounce him and God will immediately bite.
So Satan travels to meet God. God ask Satan what he's been up to and Satan says, "Wandering about". God brags about Job's piety. Satan then bets him that Job will renounce God if his protection is removed and bad things can happen to him. God says, "You're on!", and promptly allows Satan to harrow Job's family and his estate. Satan LOVES this. He's finally getting to harm the people he couldn't reach. Except for Job himself. He still can't touch Job.
After Satan is done scourging Job's family and estate, Job refuses to renounce God. And while this makes God happy, it makes Satan even happier, because now he can bet God again. And he knows God can't resist gambling. So Satan bets God that Job will renounce him if God's protection is removed from his person. God again says "You're on!" and Satan quickly sets to work giving Job the business. Absolute misery! Just what Satan loves. He even gets to watch Job's pals rag on him and twist the knife!
In the end, God believes he's won the bet because Job never completely turned his back on God. Of course, God had to speak to Job directly to keep him in line. Meanwhile, Satan goes back to making everyone else suffer content in the knowledge that God's protection can be removed with a simple wager.
Ah, I see I was baited. I obviously disagree.
You do indeed disagree, and that's perfectly fine. I told the Job story from the POV of the "wicked".
One question I have is, why would God care if Satan didn't believe Job's piety to be sincere?
There is no reason for God to care what Satan says or thinks. And there is absolutely no reason for God to harm the only "sinless" man on Earth. And yet he does so when Satan basically dares him (not even double-dog-dare). The type of ploy only a child falls for. And yet God falls for it. If an all-knowing, all-powerful God falls for such a weak tactic, is he really all-knowing or all-powerful? Seems like a pretty big plot hole to me.
Silent For Too Long said:
You are focusing too much attention on a hyper literalistic interpretation of the prologue of an obviously allegorical story. The point of the story isn't to communicate that God likes to gamble with his buddy Satan. Its just a literary device to setup the rest of the story's events.
Also, FWIW, according to textual critics the Hebrew in both prologue and and the part of Elihu appears to be possibly later additions to the story. Take of that what you will.
In a very real sense, the story is an allegorical redress to the problem of evil. The answer would seem to be that you are simply not equipped to understand why God allows good people to suffer. However, faith can still mitigate suffering.
In short, CS Lewis wasn't trying to literally communicate that their are magical worlds hiding in our closets. Try not to miss the forest for the trees.
Silent For Too Long said:
Do righteous people actually suffer in the real world? The themes and motifs are obviously rendered from reality.
Is it possible that one particularly righteous person's string of unfortunate events inspired the story? Sure. But no charitable interpretation of the story would classify it as historical narrative. The story is clearly poetic and allegorical.
Silent For Too Long said:
Now your are moving the goal posts around and trying to play gotcha games instead of approaching the subject with intellectual honesty.
Why can't the Word of God be transmitted through poetic allegory? You are presenting a false dichotomy.
10andBOUNCE said:
It can be easy to get a bit lost in the minutia of the middle chunk of the book when all of Job's friends are trying to "help" and "advise" him. Quite a few lessons to be had overall, but it mostly centers around God's sovereignty in the midst of suffering.
Some of my most favorite pieces of scripture come from the end of Job in which God finally engages with Job whom has been asking for answers and petitions his innocence, but the almighty God comes in and just mic drops on Job as he reverses the table and questions Job's knowledge of the foundation of the world.
Silent For Too Long said:
I didn't use the word likely, you did. I merely mentioned its one theory thats floating around.
Not a single scholar, secular, conservative believer, or otherwise believes the entire old testament was written from Genesis to Malachai on day 1.
You presume alot about what the creator of universes should or should not do. It seems to me you need to stop focusing on the prologue and finish the rest of Job. Your viewpoint is addressed directly in the book.
TPS_Report said:Silent For Too Long said:
Do righteous people actually suffer in the real world? The themes and motifs are obviously rendered from reality.
Is it possible that one particularly righteous person's string of unfortunate events inspired the story? Sure. But no charitable interpretation of the story would classify it as historical narrative. The story is clearly poetic and allegorical.
So this part of the Bible isn't the Word Of God but a story people made up?
Martin Q. Blank said:
Bad things happen to good people and we have no idea why.
aggiedata said:
Joel O has never preached on Job
TPS_Report said:Silent For Too Long said:
Do righteous people actually suffer in the real world? The themes and motifs are obviously rendered from reality.
Is it possible that one particularly righteous person's string of unfortunate events inspired the story? Sure. But no charitable interpretation of the story would classify it as historical narrative. The story is clearly poetic and allegorical.
So this part of the Bible isn't the Word Of God but a story people made up?
one MEEN Ag said:TPS_Report said:Silent For Too Long said:
Do righteous people actually suffer in the real world? The themes and motifs are obviously rendered from reality.
Is it possible that one particularly righteous person's string of unfortunate events inspired the story? Sure. But no charitable interpretation of the story would classify it as historical narrative. The story is clearly poetic and allegorical.
So this part of the Bible isn't the Word Of God but a story people made up?
What does The Word of God (TM) even mean?
You lack the formation to even properly phrase the question. The real question is, "Is Job mythos?" and the answer is, at the very least it is mythos because of its role as establishing the founding myth of humanity with respect to suffering and God. Job is the bedrock story on the subject.
That doesn't mean it Job didn't exist or his story isn't real. At this rate, Job being a real story and a real person is unverifiable from a secular historian view. We're not going to dig up a building that says, 'House of Job" and in a scroll that says, 'Diary'.
If you struggle to accept a world where the divine counsel exist, the idea of someone witnessing, as a third party, God and satan discussing a human is preposterous. But thats just secularism going up against any text with miraculous encounters in it. The existence of the spiritual world is preposterous so the idea of a story of the spiritual world follows to be preposterous and such not an True Account of History (TM).
TPS_Report said:one MEEN Ag said:TPS_Report said:Silent For Too Long said:
Do righteous people actually suffer in the real world? The themes and motifs are obviously rendered from reality.
Is it possible that one particularly righteous person's string of unfortunate events inspired the story? Sure. But no charitable interpretation of the story would classify it as historical narrative. The story is clearly poetic and allegorical.
So this part of the Bible isn't the Word Of God but a story people made up?
What does The Word of God (TM) even mean?
You lack the formation to even properly phrase the question. The real question is, "Is Job mythos?" and the answer is, at the very least it is mythos because of its role as establishing the founding myth of humanity with respect to suffering and God. Job is the bedrock story on the subject.
That doesn't mean it Job didn't exist or his story isn't real. At this rate, Job being a real story and a real person is unverifiable from a secular historian view. We're not going to dig up a building that says, 'House of Job" and in a scroll that says, 'Diary'.
If you struggle to accept a world where the divine counsel exist, the idea of someone witnessing, as a third party, God and satan discussing a human is preposterous. But thats just secularism going up against any text with miraculous encounters in it. The existence of the spiritual world is preposterous so the idea of a story of the spiritual world follows to be preposterous and such not an True Account of History (TM).
I lack the formation? What the hell does that even mean?
I don't struggle to accept a world where divine counsel exists. I struggle to accept a religious text that is riddled with contradictions, translation errors, and editorial changes to appease various monarchs. I struggle to fathom how anyone can read the Book of Job and not see right through it. I really don't get how the Council of Nicaea isn't a deal-breaker given the divinity of Jesus is determined by a freaking vote.
AGC said:TPS_Report said:one MEEN Ag said:TPS_Report said:Silent For Too Long said:
Do righteous people actually suffer in the real world? The themes and motifs are obviously rendered from reality.
Is it possible that one particularly righteous person's string of unfortunate events inspired the story? Sure. But no charitable interpretation of the story would classify it as historical narrative. The story is clearly poetic and allegorical.
So this part of the Bible isn't the Word Of God but a story people made up?
What does The Word of God (TM) even mean?
You lack the formation to even properly phrase the question. The real question is, "Is Job mythos?" and the answer is, at the very least it is mythos because of its role as establishing the founding myth of humanity with respect to suffering and God. Job is the bedrock story on the subject.
That doesn't mean it Job didn't exist or his story isn't real. At this rate, Job being a real story and a real person is unverifiable from a secular historian view. We're not going to dig up a building that says, 'House of Job" and in a scroll that says, 'Diary'.
If you struggle to accept a world where the divine counsel exist, the idea of someone witnessing, as a third party, God and satan discussing a human is preposterous. But thats just secularism going up against any text with miraculous encounters in it. The existence of the spiritual world is preposterous so the idea of a story of the spiritual world follows to be preposterous and such not an True Account of History (TM).
I lack the formation? What the hell does that even mean?
I don't struggle to accept a world where divine counsel exists. I struggle to accept a religious text that is riddled with contradictions, translation errors, and editorial changes to appease various monarchs. I struggle to fathom how anyone can read the Book of Job and not see right through it. I really don't get how the Council of Nicaea isn't a deal-breaker given the divinity of Jesus is determined by a freaking vote.
Perhaps you struggle with literature in general, since most of it wasn't written for or about you? You probably think there should be only one gospel too, since there's only One True Sequence of Events (TM)…
Edit: forgot the trademark
TPS_Report said:one MEEN Ag said:TPS_Report said:Silent For Too Long said:
Do righteous people actually suffer in the real world? The themes and motifs are obviously rendered from reality.
Is it possible that one particularly righteous person's string of unfortunate events inspired the story? Sure. But no charitable interpretation of the story would classify it as historical narrative. The story is clearly poetic and allegorical.
So this part of the Bible isn't the Word Of God but a story people made up?
What does The Word of God (TM) even mean?
You lack the formation to even properly phrase the question. The real question is, "Is Job mythos?" and the answer is, at the very least it is mythos because of its role as establishing the founding myth of humanity with respect to suffering and God. Job is the bedrock story on the subject.
That doesn't mean it Job didn't exist or his story isn't real. At this rate, Job being a real story and a real person is unverifiable from a secular historian view. We're not going to dig up a building that says, 'House of Job" and in a scroll that says, 'Diary'.
If you struggle to accept a world where the divine counsel exist, the idea of someone witnessing, as a third party, God and satan discussing a human is preposterous. But thats just secularism going up against any text with miraculous encounters in it. The existence of the spiritual world is preposterous so the idea of a story of the spiritual world follows to be preposterous and such not an True Account of History (TM).
I lack the formation? What the hell does that even mean?
I don't struggle to accept a world where divine counsel exists. I struggle to accept a religious text that is riddled with contradictions, translation errors, and editorial changes to appease various monarchs. I struggle to fathom how anyone can read the Book of Job and not see right through it. I really don't get how the Council of Nicaea isn't a deal-breaker given the divinity of Jesus is determined by a freaking vote.
Quote:
I really don't get how the Council of Nicaea isn't a deal-breaker given the divinity of Jesus is determined by a freaking vote.
Silent For Too Long said:TPS_Report said:one MEEN Ag said:TPS_Report said:Silent For Too Long said:
Do righteous people actually suffer in the real world? The themes and motifs are obviously rendered from reality.
Is it possible that one particularly righteous person's string of unfortunate events inspired the story? Sure. But no charitable interpretation of the story would classify it as historical narrative. The story is clearly poetic and allegorical.
So this part of the Bible isn't the Word Of God but a story people made up?
What does The Word of God (TM) even mean?
You lack the formation to even properly phrase the question. The real question is, "Is Job mythos?" and the answer is, at the very least it is mythos because of its role as establishing the founding myth of humanity with respect to suffering and God. Job is the bedrock story on the subject.
That doesn't mean it Job didn't exist or his story isn't real. At this rate, Job being a real story and a real person is unverifiable from a secular historian view. We're not going to dig up a building that says, 'House of Job" and in a scroll that says, 'Diary'.
If you struggle to accept a world where the divine counsel exist, the idea of someone witnessing, as a third party, God and satan discussing a human is preposterous. But thats just secularism going up against any text with miraculous encounters in it. The existence of the spiritual world is preposterous so the idea of a story of the spiritual world follows to be preposterous and such not an True Account of History (TM).
I lack the formation? What the hell does that even mean?
I don't struggle to accept a world where divine counsel exists. I struggle to accept a religious text that is riddled with contradictions, translation errors, and editorial changes to appease various monarchs. I struggle to fathom how anyone can read the Book of Job and not see right through it. I really don't get how the Council of Nicaea isn't a deal-breaker given the divinity of Jesus is determined by a freaking vote.
What translation errors and editorial changes? Name the top ten verrifiable ones that can be proven by extant texts in order of how dramatically they change the underlying story, ethics, motifs or theology of the text.
I've been studying this my entire life and here are some of the most substantive ones:
Goliath gets taller
A minor story in Samuel gets further details
The Samaritan tradition and Masoretic tradition swap Mount Gerizim and Mount Ebal, and the Samaritans add a commandments about Gerizim.
Daniel might be an anthology of sorts of previous Daniel stories.
A handful of parentheteticals that clarify the underlying texts.
The fact is, among all the various textual traditions, the actual data being presented, the stories, laws, genealogical record etc, all of that stays remarkably consistent. We are talking The Samaritan tradition,The Masoretic tradition, The Beta-Isreal (Ethiopian Jews) and the various Christian traditions, and the actual stories being told in all of them are nearly identical and have remained so for at least 2,300 years. We know that because of the Dead Sea Scrolls.
Are there scribal erros? Absolutely! Literally millions of them! The crazy thing is, we have so much extant data we can clearly identify 99.9999% of scribal errors.
So if you are confused about any variations please bring them here for discussion.
