dermdoc said:TOUCHDOWN! said:
With all due politeness, I don't know why I would care at all what C.S. Lewis has to say. He's not in the Bible, he's not a prophet, he never met the risen Jesus, and The Great Divorce isn't biblical whatsoever.
If Jesus is the lord of the universe, then I care what he has to say about hell. And he says that we should be afraid of the one who has the power to throw us into hell after our physical bodies die. Now why would Jesus need to throw me into hell if I'm the one who is sending myself there? Why should I fear hell if I'm going to want to keep myself in hell after I die?
The fact that Scripture states clearly God desires all to be saved to me indicates that human free will is the only way one can reject God. And choose "hell", whatever that means.
What are your beliefs on heaven/hell? And what do you think Jesus actually said about heaven/hell?
Hullabaloonatic said:dermdoc said:TOUCHDOWN! said:
With all due politeness, I don't know why I would care at all what C.S. Lewis has to say. He's not in the Bible, he's not a prophet, he never met the risen Jesus, and The Great Divorce isn't biblical whatsoever.
If Jesus is the lord of the universe, then I care what he has to say about hell. And he says that we should be afraid of the one who has the power to throw us into hell after our physical bodies die. Now why would Jesus need to throw me into hell if I'm the one who is sending myself there? Why should I fear hell if I'm going to want to keep myself in hell after I die?
The fact that Scripture states clearly God desires all to be saved to me indicates that human free will is the only way one can reject God. And choose "hell", whatever that means.
What are your beliefs on heaven/hell? And what do you think Jesus actually said about heaven/hell?
What if I WANT to believe in God/Christ, but simply find the current evidence lacking? Is it my fault that I should be condemned to hell or 'divorce' from Christ? God created me knowing exactly what it would take for me to 'accept Christ', knew my life wouldn't possess that level of 'evidence', but created me anyways knowing I'd be condemned to hell. Is that fair? Is that a truly loving God?
What is the point of free will if God knows the pre determined outcome of 'free choice' that leads straight to hell?
Hullabaloonatic said:dermdoc said:TOUCHDOWN! said:
With all due politeness, I don't know why I would care at all what C.S. Lewis has to say. He's not in the Bible, he's not a prophet, he never met the risen Jesus, and The Great Divorce isn't biblical whatsoever.
If Jesus is the lord of the universe, then I care what he has to say about hell. And he says that we should be afraid of the one who has the power to throw us into hell after our physical bodies die. Now why would Jesus need to throw me into hell if I'm the one who is sending myself there? Why should I fear hell if I'm going to want to keep myself in hell after I die?
The fact that Scripture states clearly God desires all to be saved to me indicates that human free will is the only way one can reject God. And choose "hell", whatever that means.
What are your beliefs on heaven/hell? And what do you think Jesus actually said about heaven/hell?
What if I WANT to believe in God/Christ, but simply find the current evidence lacking? Is it my fault that I should be condemned to hell or 'divorce' from Christ? God created me knowing exactly what it would take for me to 'accept Christ', knew my life wouldn't possess that level of 'evidence', but created me anyways knowing I'd be condemned to hell. Is that fair? Is that a truly loving God?
What is the point of free will if God knows the pre determined outcome of 'free choice' that leads straight to hell?
Howdy, it is me! said:Hullabaloonatic said:dermdoc said:TOUCHDOWN! said:
With all due politeness, I don't know why I would care at all what C.S. Lewis has to say. He's not in the Bible, he's not a prophet, he never met the risen Jesus, and The Great Divorce isn't biblical whatsoever.
If Jesus is the lord of the universe, then I care what he has to say about hell. And he says that we should be afraid of the one who has the power to throw us into hell after our physical bodies die. Now why would Jesus need to throw me into hell if I'm the one who is sending myself there? Why should I fear hell if I'm going to want to keep myself in hell after I die?
The fact that Scripture states clearly God desires all to be saved to me indicates that human free will is the only way one can reject God. And choose "hell", whatever that means.
What are your beliefs on heaven/hell? And what do you think Jesus actually said about heaven/hell?
What if I WANT to believe in God/Christ, but simply find the current evidence lacking? Is it my fault that I should be condemned to hell or 'divorce' from Christ? God created me knowing exactly what it would take for me to 'accept Christ', knew my life wouldn't possess that level of 'evidence', but created me anyways knowing I'd be condemned to hell. Is that fair? Is that a truly loving God?
What is the point of free will if God knows the pre determined outcome of 'free choice' that leads straight to hell?
Do you pray and ask the Lord to help your unbelief? There is a lot of solid evidence; it's not an entirely blind faith, but it DOES take faith.
I pray the Lord revels Himself to you in a way in which you cannot deny!
Hullabaloonatic said:dermdoc said:TOUCHDOWN! said:
With all due politeness, I don't know why I would care at all what C.S. Lewis has to say. He's not in the Bible, he's not a prophet, he never met the risen Jesus, and The Great Divorce isn't biblical whatsoever.
If Jesus is the lord of the universe, then I care what he has to say about hell. And he says that we should be afraid of the one who has the power to throw us into hell after our physical bodies die. Now why would Jesus need to throw me into hell if I'm the one who is sending myself there? Why should I fear hell if I'm going to want to keep myself in hell after I die?
The fact that Scripture states clearly God desires all to be saved to me indicates that human free will is the only way one can reject God. And choose "hell", whatever that means.
What are your beliefs on heaven/hell? And what do you think Jesus actually said about heaven/hell?
What if I WANT to believe in God/Christ, but simply find the current evidence lacking? Is it my fault that I should be condemned to hell or 'divorce' from Christ? God created me knowing exactly what it would take for me to 'accept Christ', knew my life wouldn't possess that level of 'evidence', but created me anyways knowing I'd be condemned to hell. Is that fair? Is that a truly loving God?
What is the point of free will if God knows the pre determined outcome of 'free choice' that leads straight to hell?
Hullabaloonatic said:Howdy, it is me! said:Hullabaloonatic said:dermdoc said:TOUCHDOWN! said:
With all due politeness, I don't know why I would care at all what C.S. Lewis has to say. He's not in the Bible, he's not a prophet, he never met the risen Jesus, and The Great Divorce isn't biblical whatsoever.
If Jesus is the lord of the universe, then I care what he has to say about hell. And he says that we should be afraid of the one who has the power to throw us into hell after our physical bodies die. Now why would Jesus need to throw me into hell if I'm the one who is sending myself there? Why should I fear hell if I'm going to want to keep myself in hell after I die?
The fact that Scripture states clearly God desires all to be saved to me indicates that human free will is the only way one can reject God. And choose "hell", whatever that means.
What are your beliefs on heaven/hell? And what do you think Jesus actually said about heaven/hell?
What if I WANT to believe in God/Christ, but simply find the current evidence lacking? Is it my fault that I should be condemned to hell or 'divorce' from Christ? God created me knowing exactly what it would take for me to 'accept Christ', knew my life wouldn't possess that level of 'evidence', but created me anyways knowing I'd be condemned to hell. Is that fair? Is that a truly loving God?
What is the point of free will if God knows the pre determined outcome of 'free choice' that leads straight to hell?
Do you pray and ask the Lord to help your unbelief? There is a lot of solid evidence; it's not an entirely blind faith, but it DOES take faith.
I pray the Lord revels Himself to you in a way in which you cannot deny!
"Praying" my way into belief seems like it'd be just as effective as putting on burnt orange and trying to convince myself I'm now a Longhorn fan if i simply say 'hook'em' more.
Hullabaloonatic said:dermdoc said:TOUCHDOWN! said:
With all due politeness, I don't know why I would care at all what C.S. Lewis has to say. He's not in the Bible, he's not a prophet, he never met the risen Jesus, and The Great Divorce isn't biblical whatsoever.
If Jesus is the lord of the universe, then I care what he has to say about hell. And he says that we should be afraid of the one who has the power to throw us into hell after our physical bodies die. Now why would Jesus need to throw me into hell if I'm the one who is sending myself there? Why should I fear hell if I'm going to want to keep myself in hell after I die?
The fact that Scripture states clearly God desires all to be saved to me indicates that human free will is the only way one can reject God. And choose "hell", whatever that means.
What are your beliefs on heaven/hell? And what do you think Jesus actually said about heaven/hell?
What if I WANT to believe in God/Christ, but simply find the current evidence lacking? Is it my fault that I should be condemned to hell or 'divorce' from Christ? God created me knowing exactly what it would take for me to 'accept Christ', knew my life wouldn't possess that level of 'evidence', but created me anyways knowing I'd be condemned to hell. Is that fair? Is that a truly loving God?
What is the point of free will if God knows the pre determined outcome of 'free choice' that leads straight to hell?
dermdoc said:TPS_Report said:
Back when I was a church-goer, I was told when a human being dies, that person's soul immediately goes to heaven or hell. But I was also told Jesus would return to judge the living and the dead.
These two seem contradictory to me.Can any of the esteemed biblical scholars on this board help a poor non-believer out?
- How are souls getting into heaven/hell prior to judgement?
- If the soul doesn't immediately go to heaven or hell, what's going on in the interim?
- Does a soul go to one or the other then get promoted/relegated at the time of final judgement?
You were taught bad theology as was I.
Scripture seems to indicate an intermediate state before Christ returns and there is judgement. What that intermediate state consists of is unclear.
Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be with Christ in paradise that day after he died. OT scripture indicates a "sleep" before Christ's return and judgement.
When Christ returns, believers will be judged at the Bema seat by Christ. Their salvation is secure and it is more of a life review.
Non believers are judged at the great white throne. All those who reject God are thrown in the lake of fire. What the lake of fire consists of is unclear. I believe it is a refining process and not ECT hell.
Then the earth is re created perfectly as it was intended before sin. God and the New Jerusalem will descend on the new earth. God will abide with us. No sorrow, death, disease, etc. All things are made new and perfect. Truly a wonderful story of God's love and ultimate restoration of all things.
MagnumLoad said:
Hey Derm, I don't know what ECT stands for. However, all the descriptions of hell in the bible, that I can recall, are eternal severe suffering in fire. The Lord Jesus shed his blood, died and rose again to be my eternal hope and savior, so I don't have to be concerned about hell. However, I don't understand people better then me that don't believe burning in hell forever.
goatchze said:MagnumLoad said:
Hey Derm, I don't know what ECT stands for. However, all the descriptions of hell in the bible, that I can recall, are eternal severe suffering in fire. The Lord Jesus shed his blood, died and rose again to be my eternal hope and savior, so I don't have to be concerned about hell. However, I don't understand people better then me that don't believe burning in hell forever.
It can cause a theodical problem. How can you reconcile a good and loving God with a God that would create someone knowing they will suffer ECT?
10andBOUNCE said:goatchze said:MagnumLoad said:
Hey Derm, I don't know what ECT stands for. However, all the descriptions of hell in the bible, that I can recall, are eternal severe suffering in fire. The Lord Jesus shed his blood, died and rose again to be my eternal hope and savior, so I don't have to be concerned about hell. However, I don't understand people better then me that don't believe burning in hell forever.
It can cause a theodical problem. How can you reconcile a good and loving God with a God that would create someone knowing they will suffer ECT?
You can't summarize God as simply good and loving.
10andBOUNCE said:
It isn't really an argument, there are many more attributes of God than good and loving.
10andBOUNCE said:
MagnumLoad said:
Hey Derm, I don't know what ECT stands for. However, all the descriptions of hell in the bible, that I can recall, are eternal severe suffering in fire. The Lord Jesus shed his blood, died and rose again to be my eternal hope and savior, so I don't have to be concerned about hell. However, I don't understand people better than me that don't believe burning in hell forever.
10andBOUNCE said:
It isn't really an argument, there are many more attributes of God than good and loving.
dermdoc said:10andBOUNCE said:
It isn't really an argument, there are many more attributes of God than good and loving.
I believe all of God's attributes come from His being good and loving. Sinners in the hands of a loving God. Who desires all men be saved. Hallelujah!
10andBOUNCE said:dermdoc said:10andBOUNCE said:
It isn't really an argument, there are many more attributes of God than good and loving.
I believe all of God's attributes come from His being good and loving. Sinners in the hands of a loving God. Who desires all men be saved. Hallelujah!
The kicker is that "good and loving" as defined by our feeble little brains doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of what those words really even entail.
Champ2260 said:
There is a difference in God knowing and God causing or directing one's choices.
Furthermore, I believe, since God can do anything, that He can choose not to know and let time (which He invented) unfold.
He has given mankind the oppor to live with Him in eternity (not FOR eternity since there is no such thing as time associated with eternity). He does that by giving us an immortal body at our resurrection when Jesus returns. Those who do not take advantage of his offer, are put to death again (soul) never to exist again.
So eternal punishment means that you are dead in eternity. It doesn't mean God keeps you alive in a back room off the back porch of heaven so he can burn you forever. The notion of hell is a fourth century construct by the Roman Catholic Church to scare people into conversion. Hell later became the greatest fundraising mechanism in all of history. That's why you see all the incredible cathedrals in Europe. Martin Luther despised the idea of raising money to get people out of hell. That started the entire reformation.
TPS_Report said:FIDO95 said:
You are judged "the nanosecond" that you die. From the Catholic perspective, you are sent to Heaven, Hell, or Purgatory (place of purification prior to be allowed into Heaven). This thread is not here to debate Purgatory so my intent is not to derail. It is only to point out there exists a place where "the dead" will be that will still require final judgement. As such, there is not "contradiction". Once final judgement it is done, it is done. There is no "promotion or relegation".
To the other point that I think you may be alluding towards, there is an ordinary and an extraordinary path to salvation. The ordinary is through the sacraments, i.e. Baptism, and a confirmation that Christ is your Lord and Savior. These acts "bind" you to God (see Matt 16:19). However, God is not limited by our actions therefore there is the extraordinary path to salvation which relies solely on God's mercy, i.e. thief on the Cross. The belief is that this extends to individuals/non-believers who have never been exposed to the Gospels, i.e. tribal peoples, unborn children. They will get an opportunity to accept or deny God's love before His throne.
Seems strange to me that God would have a "throne". As an all-powerful, all-knowing entity, what is the need for a throne? This idea that God sits on a throne in heaven sounds VERY earthly to me. It makes me think of Joseph Smith's Book of Mormon.
Why does God have a throne?
Champ2260 said:
A. God certainly could - and perhaps does- lead people of good heart and will to Him through His providential power to set circumstances favorable to hearing and obeying the Gospel. In fact, Jesus promised that "if you seek Him you will find Him." Mat 6:33
However, Paul states clearly in Rom 10:17 "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
"Without faith, it is impossible to please God…" (Heb 11:6)
B. The Bible uses various genres throughout….instruction, history, narrative, parables, symbolism, etc.
God's "throne" is not literal. We read He is a spirit - not flesh and blood. The throne symbol is commonly known as one of absolute authority.This is common knowledge in every generation in history. Thus it is a universally understood concept.
Much false understanding or scripture and false doctrines come from reversing literal and symbolic meanings - often done in a convenient and even manipulative way. The best example of that may be dispensationalism - otherwise known as the 1000 year reign. 1000 years SYMBOLIZES never ending. It's not literal. It was made to be literal by men in the early 1900s and then several authors seeking sensationalist followers made many millions writing books about it as literal. Nobody wants to be "left behind", right?
Howdy, it is me! said:Champ2260 said:
A. God certainly could - and perhaps does- lead people of good heart and will to Him through His providential power to set circumstances favorable to hearing and obeying the Gospel. In fact, Jesus promised that "if you seek Him you will find Him." Mat 6:33
However, Paul states clearly in Rom 10:17 "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
"Without faith, it is impossible to please God…" (Heb 11:6)
B. The Bible uses various genres throughout….instruction, history, narrative, parables, symbolism, etc.
God's "throne" is not literal. We read He is a spirit - not flesh and blood. The throne symbol is commonly known as one of absolute authority.This is common knowledge in every generation in history. Thus it is a universally understood concept.
Much false understanding or scripture and false doctrines come from reversing literal and symbolic meanings - often done in a convenient and even manipulative way. The best example of that may be dispensationalism - otherwise known as the 1000 year reign. 1000 years SYMBOLIZES never ending. It's not literal. It was made to be literal by men in the early 1900s and then several authors seeking sensationalist followers made many millions writing books about it as literal. Nobody wants to be "left behind", right?
I always assert that the popularity of the Left Behind series made Dispensationalism Premillenialism more wide spread. Thanks a lot, Kirk Cameron.
