Protestant conversions to Catholicism on the increase

14,894 Views | 160 Replies | Last: 2 mo ago by Skinny Jorvorskie Lane
nortex97
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AG
I'm not surprised protestant conversions to orthodox/RCC denominations are up because so, so many Protestant denominations have become utterly woke, and the seminaries feeding into the pastoral corps have just been similarly devastated over the past 3 decades. It's truly sad to me.

If I were to pick 20 of the nearest mid/large Protestant churches near me (Frisco, TX) I would undoubtedly be appalled by at least 15 of them as to their teachings/style of worship alike, even if I exclude the 'Prosperity theology' semi-Christian heretical ones.

Sorry, rant over. As an aside, I saw this yesterday and was encouraged, as I don't see denominational threats/rivalry to such news;
Severian the Torturer
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AgLiving06 said:

I'm not going to do the work of explaining councils to you that you never leaned about.

But to short circuit. They were held by the entire Christian church to work through issues. No pope presided over them.

Most importantly they are in accordance with scripture.

Okay, so these councils were chaired by random dudes with an MDiv from Oral Roberts? Can you also explain to me what a "papal legate" was in regards to their not being a Pope at this time?

Follow up question, what did famous heretics Macedonius, Nestorius, and Eutyches use to support their heresy.

Please also give me an example of what excommunication means for the 2nd Lutheran church of AgLiving06 (Tegucigalpa Synod)
Zobel
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AG
News to me that Lutherans accept all seven ecumenical councils.
AgLiving06
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Law361 said:

Here's an interesting article from a Protestant perspective on this phenomenon: https://byfaithonline.com/resisting-the-lure-of-catholicism-and-orthodoxy/?fbclid=IwdGRjcAQDdVxleHRuA2FlbQIxMQBzcnRjBmFwcF9pZA8xNzM4NDc2NDI2NzAzNzAAAR6q3BTa0RCJ_Gi8q_drsCEOD354OvcN-FVpJ4cd4C5vgY_7nM3IfPgEwy-9OQ_aem_e24T139Ptenbi1wiq8BvTQ


There is something to this.

Appearances can be important and for the modern evangelical, there is something overwhelming about walking into an EO or Rome church in terms of aesthetic. This is a significant flaw that does exist within some parts of Evangelicalism and

You're also going to get the idealistic picture of any group.

However, the key question becomes what happens once the shine wears off and the theology begins to matter.

AgLiving06
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Zobel said:

News to me that Lutherans accept all seven ecumenical councils.


Assuming you're taking about Nicaea 2. Nobody would argue the other 6.

That one probably has an asterisk next to it.

Lutherans aren't iconoclasts, so we can affirm icons are good and have a purpose.

We would absolutely point out that Nicaea 2 was flawed in its reasoning and the history it used to come to the conclusions it did.

There's a great discussion between Ortlund and DeYoung on this. I won't say that DeYoung concedes there were errors, but effectively says that even if there are errors, because the EO follow the canons, it must be right.

I personally don't find that reasoning to be sustainable, but to each their own.
AgLiving06
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Severian the Torturer said:

AgLiving06 said:

I'm not going to do the work of explaining councils to you that you never leaned about.

But to short circuit. They were held by the entire Christian church to work through issues. No pope presided over them.

Most importantly they are in accordance with scripture.

Okay, so these councils were chaired by random dudes with an MDiv from Oral Roberts? Can you also explain to me what a "papal legate" was in regards to their not being a Pope at this time?

Follow up question, what did famous heretics Macedonius, Nestorius, and Eutyches use to support their heresy.

Please also give me an example of what excommunication means for the 2nd Lutheran church of AgLiving06 (Tegucigalpa Synod)


That Rome attended, as part of the larger catholic and orthodox church means little. All of the "Christian groups" attended, for lack of a better word. Rome was not the leader and the pope didn't get to decide. The church debated what the Scriptures said and it was through that we get some key views of Christ (primarily).

----------------
Your follow up is not a gotcha. You actually prove the opposite. Claims from Scripture were made. They were fiercely debated, and guess what? Long after these councils, Bishops within the church taught heresy. No authority made some overarching ruling, and of course nobody was burned at the stake for it as Rome likes to do.

Try again?
Severian the Torturer
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AgLiving06 said:

Severian the Torturer said:

AgLiving06 said:

I'm not going to do the work of explaining councils to you that you never leaned about.

But to short circuit. They were held by the entire Christian church to work through issues. No pope presided over them.

Most importantly they are in accordance with scripture.

Okay, so these councils were chaired by random dudes with an MDiv from Oral Roberts? Can you also explain to me what a "papal legate" was in regards to their not being a Pope at this time?

Follow up question, what did famous heretics Macedonius, Nestorius, and Eutyches use to support their heresy.

Please also give me an example of what excommunication means for the 2nd Lutheran church of AgLiving06 (Tegucigalpa Synod)


That Rome attended, as part of the larger catholic and orthodox church means little. All of the "Christian groups" attended, for lack of a better word. Rome was not the leader and the pope didn't get to decide. The church debated what the Scriptures said and it was through that we get some key views of Christ (primarily).

----------------
Your follow up is not a gotcha. You actually prove the opposite. Claims from Scripture were made. They were fiercely debated, and guess what? Long after these councils, Bishops within the church taught heresy. No authority made some overarching ruling, and of course nobody was burned at the stake for it as Rome likes to do.

Try again?

Thank you for your soliloquy, would you please answer the questions.
Severian the Torturer
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AgLiving06 said:

Zobel said:

News to me that Lutherans accept all seven ecumenical councils.


Assuming you're taking about Nicaea 2. Nobody would argue the other 6.

That one probably has an asterisk next to it.

Lutherans aren't iconoclasts, so we can affirm icons are good and have a purpose.

We would absolutely point out that Nicaea 2 was flawed in its reasoning and the history it used to come to the conclusions it did.

There's a great discussion between Ortlund and DeYoung on this. I won't say that DeYoung concedes there were errors, but effectively says that even if there are errors, because the EO follow the canons, it must be right.

I personally don't find that reasoning to be sustainable, but to each their own.

This is absolutely false. There are tons of arguments within Protestantism, including Lutheranism about the 5-7th council, with the usual complaints being that they're not explicitly scriptural or political in motivation.


AgLiving06
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Severian the Torturer said:

AgLiving06 said:

Zobel said:

News to me that Lutherans accept all seven ecumenical councils.


Assuming you're taking about Nicaea 2. Nobody would argue the other 6.

That one probably has an asterisk next to it.

Lutherans aren't iconoclasts, so we can affirm icons are good and have a purpose.

We would absolutely point out that Nicaea 2 was flawed in its reasoning and the history it used to come to the conclusions it did.

There's a great discussion between Ortlund and DeYoung on this. I won't say that DeYoung concedes there were errors, but effectively says that even if there are errors, because the EO follow the canons, it must be right.

I personally don't find that reasoning to be sustainable, but to each their own.

This is absolutely false. There are tons of arguments within Protestantism, including Lutheranism about the 5-7th council, with the usual complaints being that they're not explicitly scriptural or political in motivation.





Nope. Try again.
nortex97
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AG
They were very colorful gatherings, one must admit. I find it tough to see some sort of divine perfection when reading into the details of the histories.
Zobel
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AG
Anyone who's going to assert that Lutheranism strictly follows the canons of the ecumenical councils should be rightly laughed out of the room. Luther didn't even consider the council of Jerusalem as binding in his own words. See: On the councils and the churches.

The pivot is going to be: "we accept them but judge them against scripture" which, like everything else, subordinates them to individual opinion.
AgLiving06
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Zobel said:

Anyone who's going to assert that Lutheranism strictly follows the canons of the ecumenical councils should be rightly laughed out of the room. Luther didn't even consider the council of Jerusalem as binding in his own words. See: On the councils and the churches.

The pivot is going to be: "we accept them but judge them against scripture" which, like everything else, subordinates them to individual opinion.


A pivot? It's the very definition of Sola Scriptura. I also made that clear from the start

But that wasn't the question initially. The question initially was around the outcome of the 7 ecumenical councils and whether that is a point of disagreement within Christianity.

And I contend still the only contentious council will be Nicaea 2. So uniformity is not an issue basis these councils.
FIDO95
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AG
These two posts sum it up. When the "ancient" attempt to appeal to the young falls flat:



The more meaningful connection is when the young appeal back to what is ancient:

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Zobel
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AG
"We follow the councils unless we don't think they comport with scripture" is just "we do whatever we think scripture says" which also describes all heresies.

And Luther doesnt even pass THAT low bar because the council in the scriptures he freely rejects.
AgLiving06
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Ah yes. Lets rely on secret knowledge known only to those in charge

Because nobody ever wrote against the claims of secret knowledge.

Zobel
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AG
1. what
Severian the Torturer
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AgLiving06 said:

Ah yes. Lets rely on secret knowledge known only to those in charge

Because nobody ever wrote against the claims of secret knowledge.




Your post somehow makes more sense in haiku.

Rely on secret
knowledge known only to those
in charge. No one wrote.
AgLiving06
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I was so curious to see what about the Council of Jerusalem that Luther felt he could dismiss.

I mean some on here are so adamant Luther no only felt he could ignore Ecumenical Councils, but also councils in Scripture itself.

Such a powerful charge against Luther.

The reality? That's the big gotcha from some on this board. German sausages.

Acts 15:29 "29 that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. "

He said that like ceremonial laws of the Scriptures, this one had a time and place, but was no longer in effective in 1700 Germany.

You got him good!

Zobel
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AG
In other words, you agree that Luther not only felt he could ignore ecumenical councils but councils in scripture itself.

The people of God are commanded to not eat blood. You shouldn't eat blood.

Quote:

He said that like ceremonial laws of the Scriptures, this one had a time and place, but was no longer in effective in 1700 Germany.

And in 2026 Germany the (made up category) of scripture is no longer effective so gays can marry. Same same.
Severian the Torturer
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AgLiving06 said:

I was so curious to see what about the Council of Jerusalem that Luther felt he could dismiss.

I mean some on here are so adamant Luther no only felt he could ignore Ecumenical Councils, but also councils in Scripture itself.

Such a powerful charge against Luther.

The reality? That's the big gotcha from some on this board. German sausages.

Acts 15:29 "29 that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. "

He said that like ceremonial laws of the Scriptures, this one had a time and place, but was no longer in effective in 1700 Germany.

You got him good!




I guess if you're going to claim the authority to remove James and Revelation from the Bible, blood sausage is really nothing to sneeze at
AgLiving06
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Yawn

In other words, Luther examined how Paul addressed this very issue with the Corinthians and Romans and saw that even Paul recognized that particular ruling was limited to a particular situation, and was not meant universally.

1 Corinthians 10:23 "All things are lawful," but not all things are helpful. "All things are lawful," but not all things build up. 24 Let no one seek his own good, but the good of his neighbor. 25 Eat whatever is sold in the meat market without raising any question on the ground of conscience.

Romans 14: 13 Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. 14 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. 15 For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died. 16 So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

-------------

So as with most things with Luther...Blame Paul...
AgLiving06
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And if the Germans are promoting gay marriage now, maybe we need to look to those ecclesial groups who believe they have authority to make those changes.
Severian the Torturer
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AgLiving06 said:

And if the Germans are promoting gay marriage now, maybe we need to look to those ecclesial groups who believe they have authority to make those changes.


You know I actually agree with you here. The Protestant curse still lies heavily on Germany, and the revolutionary spirit of Martin Luther still flavors the local heresy even within the sacred bounds of the church
AgLiving06
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"The Protestant Curse"

The insecurity of the ecclesial groups is funny.

It definitely wasn't Rome murdering people, stealing money from them, and breaking every commandment available.

It was definitely Luther who said, "Hey, we should probably all be able to read what the Scriptures say."

Thaddeus73
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AG
To my great accuser...
Quote:

.it is a least refreshing that you don't even pretend to be honest in these discussions.

How so?
FIDO95
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AG
It amazes me that people think they can read "scriptures" reveal "the truth". This is contrary to human nature.

In the past two months, there have been two video recordings (mind you, not ancient text translated to English) of ICE protestors being shot and killed. In both instances, people choose "the truth" that fit their tribe. As such, people will have a tendency to cherry pick verses and bend them to justify their own world view.

There is a reason that Christ appointed Peter to be the living word on Earth and pass that authority to maintain a living representative of His church. I'll let Bishop Barron explain:

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Zobel
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AG
St Paul would have never told gentile Christians to violate the Torah. Leviticus 17:12 says not only the Israelites but also foreigners among them are prohibited from eating blood. The Torah - the scripture - is exactly the basis for the ruling of the council of Jerusalem that gentiles coming to faith in the God of Israel had to abstain from certain things - idolatry, sexual immorality, and eating of blood are all in this category of the Torah which apply to both Israelites and foreigners. You should not eat blood - this commandment was given to Noah and predates the Mosaic covenant at Sinai!

This is exactly the problem in a nutshell. By setting yourself over the councils you end up justifying explicit violations of both apostolic teachings and the scripture.
Severian the Torturer
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AgLiving06 said:

"The Protestant Curse"

The insecurity of the ecclesial groups is funny.

It definitely wasn't Rome murdering people, stealing money from them, and breaking every commandment available.

It was definitely Luther who said, "Hey, we should probably all be able to read what the Scriptures say."



"And if the scriptures are at odds with your personal belief, just say they're not actually scripture, and call them epistles of straw"
-Pope Luther I

Protestants: "That sounds so edgy We should definitely name our heresy after this guy. "
AgLiving06
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Severian the Torturer said:

AgLiving06 said:

"The Protestant Curse"

The insecurity of the ecclesial groups is funny.

It definitely wasn't Rome murdering people, stealing money from them, and breaking every commandment available.

It was definitely Luther who said, "Hey, we should probably all be able to read what the Scriptures say."



"And if the scriptures are at odds with your personal belief, just say they're not actually scripture, and call them epistles of straw"
-Pope Luther I

Protestants: "That sounds so edgy We should definitely name our heresy after this guy. "


I'm trying to figure out if you've ever gotten a single point right?

This again is completely wrong.


AgLiving06
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Yawn

Anytime I'm in the company of both Chrysostom and Augustine, it's a nice place to be.

Chrysostom: Homily 33 on Acts 15

"Through the perversity of these men. He shows that even these (the Jews) need observe 209 no more (than these necessary things). And if we do not write to them, it is not that they are bound to observe anything more, but only that they have one to tell them. And he does not say, Not to offend, nor to turn them back,771 which is what Paul said to the Galatians, but, "not to trouble them:" he shows that the point () if carried is nothing but a mere troubling. Thus he made an end of the whole matter;772 and while he seems to preserve the Law by adopting these rules from it, he unbinds it by taking only these."

Augustine: Against Faustus 32:13

For, allowing that the apostles did on that occasion require Christians to abstain from the blood of animals, and not to eat of things strangled, they seem to me to have consulted the time in choosing an easy observance that could not be burdensome to any one, and which the Gentiles might have in common with the Israelities, for the sake of the Cornerstone, who makes both one in Himself; Ephesians 2:11-22 while at the same time they would be reminded how the Church of all nations was prefigured by the Ark of Noah, when God gave this command a type which began to be fulfilled in the time of the apostles by the accession of the Gentiles to the faith. But since the close of that period during which the two walls of the circumcision and the uncircumcision, although united in the Cornerstone, still retained some distinctive peculiarities, and now that the Church has become so entirely Gentile that none who are outwardly Israelites are to be found in it, no Christian feels bound to abstain from thrushes or small birds because their blood has not been poured out, or from hares because they are killed by a stroke on the neck without shedding their blood. Any who still are afraid to touch these things are laughed at by the rest: so general is the conviction of the truth, that "not what enters into the mouth defiles you, but what comes out of it;" Matthew 15:11 that evil lies in the commission of sin, and not in the nature of any food in ordinary use.

KingofHazor
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Zobel said:

St Paul would have never told gentile Christians to violate the Torah. Leviticus 17:12 says not only the Israelites but also foreigners among them are prohibited from eating blood. The Torah - the scripture - is exactly the basis for the ruling of the council of Jerusalem that gentiles coming to faith in the God of Israel had to abstain from certain things - idolatry, sexual immorality, and eating of blood are all in this category of the Torah which apply to both Israelites and foreigners. You should not eat blood - this commandment was given to Noah and predates the Mosaic covenant at Sinai!

This is exactly the problem in a nutshell. By setting yourself over the councils you end up justifying explicit violations of both apostolic teachings and the scripture.

Your post is internally contradictory and is based on a false predicate.

You provide a reasoned argument, from Scripture, on why the first "council" was correct. Thus, everyone agreed with the first council, not because of some innate or divine authority, but because it was Scripturally correct. What evidence is that God divinely ordained or inspired any Church council? Which councils were ordained by God? There were lots of regional church councils. Were they all ordained of God and infallible? Were all of the RCC councils ordained and infallible after the Great Schism? Why or why not?

Your false predicate is that some set themselves over the councils. They do not. They set Scripture over the councils.

What do you propose when a council is clearly wrong, in violation of clear Scriptural teaching?
Zobel
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AG
If there is an internal contradiction, feel free to point it out.

There are some simple claims:

1. St Paul did not teach people to violate the Torah. Not only would this make him out to be a liar, because he denies this, but it would also put him at odds with Jesus, who also affirms the Torah.

2. The Apostles at the council of Jerusalem took a close reading of Leviticus and applied it to gentiles coming to the church, essentially affirming that the Torah was fully in force, and that it never had applied to gentiles in the same way it applied to the sons of Israel. Therefore, the things which in Leviticus say "say to the sons of Israel and to the foreigner among you" or similar, applied to the gentiles. These things include sexual immorality (Lev 18, explicitly by 18:26), idolatry (Lev 17:8, molech specifically in 20:2), and eating blood (17:12). Note this doesn't include the laws about other dietary restrictions, for example. Therefore, because we're following what the Apostles taught, which affirms the Torah given by God, we should not eat blood. Incidentally, this is the exact same logic why we should not commit sexual immorality or idolatry. I don't see how you can throw away one and not the other.

3. No, I do not say the council of Jerusalem was correct because of the tightness of their argument. I say it was correct because the assembled bishops there made a judgment in the application of the Torah, just as Moses did. They spoke and Christ ratified it in Heaven. This is why they can say, truthfully, "It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us". You can either say - the council of Jerusalem was inspired by the Holy Spirit, because Acts 15:28 says so, your you can say that they were mistaken or lying. Or I suppose you could say St Luke in Acts was mistaken.

You seem to want to make this about rules, but it's not. It is about authority. The picture of the authority given to the Apostles, and subsequently to bishops, isn't novel - it comes straight out of Israel as the scriptures show us in Exodus and Leviticus.

Bishops are not bound by canons. Canons are standards. Bishops are bound by their obligations toward God. So the canons which are standards expressed by bishops are just that - standards. The responsibility to apply them and make judgments about them is for bishops. Bishops are over canons, people like you and me are under the canons as a standard, and under the bishops application of them for the rule of the church. The authority isn't in councils in abstract, it is in bishops in a real practical way.

Quote:

Your false predicate is that some set themselves over the councils. They do not. They set Scripture over the councils.

Scripture doesn't *do* anything. It doesn't get up and make a council false. A person reading scripture may use their reasoning to accept or reject the ruling of a council. But all this is doing is making that person out to have the authority of a bishop. They don't have this authority. And, because of this kind of hubris, you get people making the claim that they have the authority because of what scripture says, even when they're wrong. Like Luther was.
Quote:

What do you propose when a council is clearly wrong, in violation of clear Scriptural teaching?

A hypothetical is kind of useless. And, this is above my paygrade. My role is to be obedient and submit to those in authority (like it says in the scriptures). I have no authority to set canons or judge them.
Zobel
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AG
This isn't how it works, though - and you know that. A random homily isn't the same thing as the judgment of a bishop or the application of a canon.

That judgment, or canon, from Jerusalem is still very much in force.

Apostolic Canon 63
If any bishop, presbyter, or deacon, or any one of the sacerdotal order, shall eat flesh, with the blood of the life thereof, or anything killed by beasts, or that dies of itself, let him be deposed. For the law has forbidden this. If he be a layman, let him be excommunicated.

Quinisext Council Canon 67
The divine Scripture commands us to abstain from blood, from things strangled, and from fornication. Those therefore who on account of a dainty stomach prepare by any art for food the blood of any animal, and so eat it, we punish suitably. If anyone henceforth venture to eat in any way the blood of an animal, if he be a clergyman, let him be deposed; if a layman, let him be cut off.

Related point of evidence, but less explicit, is Canon 2 of the Council of Gangra
If any one shall condemn him who eats flesh, which is without blood and has not been offered to idols nor strangled, and is faithful and devout, as though the man were without hope [of salvation] because of his eating, let him be anathema.

By exclusion, this means that flesh with blood or has been offered to idols or strangled is condemnable.

Later councils reaffirm previous councils. Jersualem's canons are affirmed through the Apostolic canons, and Quinisext (both by reaffirming with canon 2 and explicitly with canon 67), and again at the 7th Ecumenical council first canon which affirms previous canons whether they come from the Spirit, the Apostles, the previous ecumenical councils, or local councils promulgated the ecumenical councils, or by the Fathers. Canon 2 then said if a person can't observe the canons, can't be ordained as a bishop.

So, these canons are very much still applicable to Christians, and if you affirm the Nicaea II as an ecumenical council, then you also by definition affirm the canons they inherit, which include the above.

Conclusion: don't eat blood. The scriptures, the Apostles, and the Church forbid it.
AgLiving06
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You're suggesting that how it works, we should base our theology on councils we decide we like? Specifically, a non-ecumenical council rejected by the West?

That's most certainly not how it works now.
Zobel
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AG
Your alternative is "we should ignore the scriptures and the councils because I like blood sausage" thanks but I'll pass. If you can change the canon about eating blood, you can change the prohibition against sexual immorality because they come from the same place.
 
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