https://learn.ligonier.org/devotionals/agonizing-prayerQuote:
The theological term for Jesus' act of drinking the cup is propitiation. A modern dictionary will say that to propitiate means "to appease" or "to placate." I find these definitions unsatisfactory when applied to Christ because they suggest a soothing or softening the wrath of an offended deity. Jesus did not soothe the wrath of God He endured it. He did not suppress or extinguish it as we would extinguish a fire; rather, He absorbed in His own soul the full, unmitigated fury of God's wrath against sin. To continue with the metaphor, He drank the cup of God's wrath to its last bitter drop. So for us who believe, the cup of God's wrath is empty.
10andBOUNCE said:
I have come to a realization this week that my understanding of Christ's sacrifice on the cross is embarrassingly shallow. How many times I gloss over the reality that Christ went to the cross for my sins. How many times have I not considered the weight of what Jesus endured.https://learn.ligonier.org/devotionals/agonizing-prayerQuote:
The theological term for Jesus' act of drinking the cup is propitiation. A modern dictionary will say that to propitiate means "to appease" or "to placate." I find these definitions unsatisfactory when applied to Christ because they suggest a soothing or softening the wrath of an offended deity. Jesus did not soothe the wrath of God He endured it. He did not suppress or extinguish it as we would extinguish a fire; rather, He absorbed in His own soul the full, unmitigated fury of God's wrath against sin. To continue with the metaphor, He drank the cup of God's wrath to its last bitter drop. So for us who believe, the cup of God's wrath is empty.
Quote:
The harlot came to Thee, O only Friend of man, * and on Thy feet poured out myrrh mingled with her tears * and was set free at Thy command from all the stench of her sinning. * But, though breathing of Thy grace, * Thy disciple and thankless foe, * casting it away from him, * was instead mingled with the mire * and sold Thee in his blind love of money. * O Christ, glory be to Thy compassion.
Glory to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.
The treacherous Judas, stirred with love of money within, * most craftily mediated the betrayal of Thee, the Treasure of Life, O Lord. * Wherefore, drunk with madness, to the Jews he now runneth; * and to those transgressors, he saith: What will ye give me, * and I will hand him over to you, that he be crucified?
Both now and ever, and unto ages of ages. Amen.
While sighing from the depths with unquenchable fervor, * the harlot warmly wept, O Compassionate Savior, * and wiping Thy spotless feet with the hairs of her head, she cried: * Drive me not away, my God, nor hate and abhor me, * but receive me now in my repentance, and save me, * O Lord, only Friend of man.
Quote:
O the wretchedness of Judas! He beheld the harlot kissing Thy feet, and he treacherously meditated the kiss of betrayal. She let loose her tresses, and he bound himself with wrath, bearing instead of myrrh, his stinking wickedness; for envy knoweth not even to prefer its own profit. O the wretchedness of Judas! From which, O God, do Thou deliver our souls.
Quote:
O Lord, the woman who had fallen into many sins perceived Thy divinity, and taking upon herself the duty of a myrrh-bearer, with lamentation she bringeth Thee myrrh-oils before Thine entombment. Woe unto me! saith she, for night is become for me a frenzy of licentiousness, a dark and moonless love of sin. Receive the fountains of my tears, O Thou Who dost gather into clouds the water of the sea. Incline unto me, unto the sighings of my heart, O Thou Who didst bow the Heavens by Thine ineffable condescension. I will kiss Thine immaculate feet, and wipe them again with the tresses of my head; those feet, at whose sound Eve hid herself for fear when she heard Thee walking in Paradise in the cool of the day. As for the multitude of my sins and the abyss of Thy judgments, who can search them out, O Savior of souls, my Savior? Do not disdain me, Thy handmaiden, O Thou Who art boundless in mercy.
I think as much as we might try, our tiny little brains can't fully comprehend.10andBOUNCE said:
I have come to a realization this week that my understanding of Christ's sacrifice on the cross is embarrassingly shallow. How many times I gloss over the reality that Christ went to the cross for my sins. How many times have I not considered the weight of what Jesus endured.https://learn.ligonier.org/devotionals/agonizing-prayerQuote:
The theological term for Jesus' act of drinking the cup is propitiation. A modern dictionary will say that to propitiate means "to appease" or "to placate." I find these definitions unsatisfactory when applied to Christ because they suggest a soothing or softening the wrath of an offended deity. Jesus did not soothe the wrath of God He endured it. He did not suppress or extinguish it as we would extinguish a fire; rather, He absorbed in His own soul the full, unmitigated fury of God's wrath against sin. To continue with the metaphor, He drank the cup of God's wrath to its last bitter drop. So for us who believe, the cup of God's wrath is empty.
dermdoc said:10andBOUNCE said:
I have come to a realization this week that my understanding of Christ's sacrifice on the cross is embarrassingly shallow. How many times I gloss over the reality that Christ went to the cross for my sins. How many times have I not considered the weight of what Jesus endured.https://learn.ligonier.org/devotionals/agonizing-prayerQuote:
The theological term for Jesus' act of drinking the cup is propitiation. A modern dictionary will say that to propitiate means "to appease" or "to placate." I find these definitions unsatisfactory when applied to Christ because they suggest a soothing or softening the wrath of an offended deity. Jesus did not soothe the wrath of God He endured it. He did not suppress or extinguish it as we would extinguish a fire; rather, He absorbed in His own soul the full, unmitigated fury of God's wrath against sin. To continue with the metaphor, He drank the cup of God's wrath to its last bitter drop. So for us who believe, the cup of God's wrath is empty.
I am biting my tongue on that atonement theology. But even though we differ on atonement, have a wonderful Easter.
He is risen!
Sure I do. It is Biblical. I think of God's wrath as how the father (who I believe is God) acted in the prodigal son parable. Or the one lost lamb or coin.Howdy, it is me! said:dermdoc said:10andBOUNCE said:
I have come to a realization this week that my understanding of Christ's sacrifice on the cross is embarrassingly shallow. How many times I gloss over the reality that Christ went to the cross for my sins. How many times have I not considered the weight of what Jesus endured.https://learn.ligonier.org/devotionals/agonizing-prayerQuote:
The theological term for Jesus' act of drinking the cup is propitiation. A modern dictionary will say that to propitiate means "to appease" or "to placate." I find these definitions unsatisfactory when applied to Christ because they suggest a soothing or softening the wrath of an offended deity. Jesus did not soothe the wrath of God He endured it. He did not suppress or extinguish it as we would extinguish a fire; rather, He absorbed in His own soul the full, unmitigated fury of God's wrath against sin. To continue with the metaphor, He drank the cup of God's wrath to its last bitter drop. So for us who believe, the cup of God's wrath is empty.
I am biting my tongue on that atonement theology. But even though we differ on atonement, have a wonderful Easter.
He is risen!
You don't believe in God's wrath do you?
dermdoc said:Sure I do. It is Biblical. I think of God's wrath as how the father (who I believe is God) acted in the prodigal son parable. Or the one lost lamb or coin.Howdy, it is me! said:dermdoc said:10andBOUNCE said:
I have come to a realization this week that my understanding of Christ's sacrifice on the cross is embarrassingly shallow. How many times I gloss over the reality that Christ went to the cross for my sins. How many times have I not considered the weight of what Jesus endured.https://learn.ligonier.org/devotionals/agonizing-prayerQuote:
The theological term for Jesus' act of drinking the cup is propitiation. A modern dictionary will say that to propitiate means "to appease" or "to placate." I find these definitions unsatisfactory when applied to Christ because they suggest a soothing or softening the wrath of an offended deity. Jesus did not soothe the wrath of God He endured it. He did not suppress or extinguish it as we would extinguish a fire; rather, He absorbed in His own soul the full, unmitigated fury of God's wrath against sin. To continue with the metaphor, He drank the cup of God's wrath to its last bitter drop. So for us who believe, the cup of God's wrath is empty.
I am biting my tongue on that atonement theology. But even though we differ on atonement, have a wonderful Easter.
He is risen!
You don't believe in God's wrath do you?
My dad was a Godly man. He disciplined me but it was always for my own good. That is how I perceive God's wrath.
How do you interpret God's wrath on humans He created?
I agree. So who does the prodigal son's father represent?Howdy, it is me! said:dermdoc said:Sure I do. It is Biblical. I think of God's wrath as how the father (who I believe is God) acted in the prodigal son parable. Or the one lost lamb or coin.Howdy, it is me! said:dermdoc said:10andBOUNCE said:
I have come to a realization this week that my understanding of Christ's sacrifice on the cross is embarrassingly shallow. How many times I gloss over the reality that Christ went to the cross for my sins. How many times have I not considered the weight of what Jesus endured.https://learn.ligonier.org/devotionals/agonizing-prayerQuote:
The theological term for Jesus' act of drinking the cup is propitiation. A modern dictionary will say that to propitiate means "to appease" or "to placate." I find these definitions unsatisfactory when applied to Christ because they suggest a soothing or softening the wrath of an offended deity. Jesus did not soothe the wrath of God He endured it. He did not suppress or extinguish it as we would extinguish a fire; rather, He absorbed in His own soul the full, unmitigated fury of God's wrath against sin. To continue with the metaphor, He drank the cup of God's wrath to its last bitter drop. So for us who believe, the cup of God's wrath is empty.
I am biting my tongue on that atonement theology. But even though we differ on atonement, have a wonderful Easter.
He is risen!
You don't believe in God's wrath do you?
My dad was a Godly man. He disciplined me but it was always for my own good. That is how I perceive God's wrath.
How do you interpret God's wrath on humans He created?
Well, I certainly never would have described the prodigal son's father as exhibiting wrath; I'd describe his behavior far from wrath, the opposite in fact. The prodigal son received forgiveness not wrath.
dermdoc said:I agree. So who does the prodigal son's father represent?Howdy, it is me! said:dermdoc said:Sure I do. It is Biblical. I think of God's wrath as how the father (who I believe is God) acted in the prodigal son parable. Or the one lost lamb or coin.Howdy, it is me! said:dermdoc said:10andBOUNCE said:
I have come to a realization this week that my understanding of Christ's sacrifice on the cross is embarrassingly shallow. How many times I gloss over the reality that Christ went to the cross for my sins. How many times have I not considered the weight of what Jesus endured.https://learn.ligonier.org/devotionals/agonizing-prayerQuote:
The theological term for Jesus' act of drinking the cup is propitiation. A modern dictionary will say that to propitiate means "to appease" or "to placate." I find these definitions unsatisfactory when applied to Christ because they suggest a soothing or softening the wrath of an offended deity. Jesus did not soothe the wrath of God He endured it. He did not suppress or extinguish it as we would extinguish a fire; rather, He absorbed in His own soul the full, unmitigated fury of God's wrath against sin. To continue with the metaphor, He drank the cup of God's wrath to its last bitter drop. So for us who believe, the cup of God's wrath is empty.
I am biting my tongue on that atonement theology. But even though we differ on atonement, have a wonderful Easter.
He is risen!
You don't believe in God's wrath do you?
My dad was a Godly man. He disciplined me but it was always for my own good. That is how I perceive God's wrath.
How do you interpret God's wrath on humans He created?
Well, I certainly never would have described the prodigal son's father as exhibiting wrath; I'd describe his behavior far from wrath, the opposite in fact. The prodigal son received forgiveness not wrath.
Agree. That is what a loving Father does in my opinion. I don't stop loving my kids or grandkids if they do something wrong and do not come back and say they are sorry.PacifistAg said:
I would say that with the younger brother, we see both the Father's wrath (giving His son the separation he demanded) and His forgiveness, and reveals what God's wrath actually looks like.
It makes me think of when the Israelites demanded a king like the other nations of the world. God, through Samuel, wanted them what it would bring. God even said it was a rejection of Him. The wrath was in His allowing them the path they desired away from Him.
Disagree. Our understanding differs on the character of God as revealed by Jesus. That is the main reason I am not Reformed.Howdy, it is me! said:dermdoc said:I agree. So who does the prodigal son's father represent?Howdy, it is me! said:dermdoc said:Sure I do. It is Biblical. I think of God's wrath as how the father (who I believe is God) acted in the prodigal son parable. Or the one lost lamb or coin.Howdy, it is me! said:dermdoc said:10andBOUNCE said:
I have come to a realization this week that my understanding of Christ's sacrifice on the cross is embarrassingly shallow. How many times I gloss over the reality that Christ went to the cross for my sins. How many times have I not considered the weight of what Jesus endured.https://learn.ligonier.org/devotionals/agonizing-prayerQuote:
The theological term for Jesus' act of drinking the cup is propitiation. A modern dictionary will say that to propitiate means "to appease" or "to placate." I find these definitions unsatisfactory when applied to Christ because they suggest a soothing or softening the wrath of an offended deity. Jesus did not soothe the wrath of God He endured it. He did not suppress or extinguish it as we would extinguish a fire; rather, He absorbed in His own soul the full, unmitigated fury of God's wrath against sin. To continue with the metaphor, He drank the cup of God's wrath to its last bitter drop. So for us who believe, the cup of God's wrath is empty.
I am biting my tongue on that atonement theology. But even though we differ on atonement, have a wonderful Easter.
He is risen!
You don't believe in God's wrath do you?
My dad was a Godly man. He disciplined me but it was always for my own good. That is how I perceive God's wrath.
How do you interpret God's wrath on humans He created?
Well, I certainly never would have described the prodigal son's father as exhibiting wrath; I'd describe his behavior far from wrath, the opposite in fact. The prodigal son received forgiveness not wrath.
I think where our understanding may differ is not on who the father represents but who the prodigal son represents.
The son represents a repentant sinner who God welcomes with open arms, not with wrath and judgement but with grace and forgiveness.
dermdoc said:Disagree. Our understanding differs on the character of God as revealed by Jesus. That is the main reason I am not Reformed.Howdy, it is me! said:dermdoc said:I agree. So who does the prodigal son's father represent?Howdy, it is me! said:dermdoc said:Sure I do. It is Biblical. I think of God's wrath as how the father (who I believe is God) acted in the prodigal son parable. Or the one lost lamb or coin.Howdy, it is me! said:dermdoc said:10andBOUNCE said:
I have come to a realization this week that my understanding of Christ's sacrifice on the cross is embarrassingly shallow. How many times I gloss over the reality that Christ went to the cross for my sins. How many times have I not considered the weight of what Jesus endured.https://learn.ligonier.org/devotionals/agonizing-prayerQuote:
The theological term for Jesus' act of drinking the cup is propitiation. A modern dictionary will say that to propitiate means "to appease" or "to placate." I find these definitions unsatisfactory when applied to Christ because they suggest a soothing or softening the wrath of an offended deity. Jesus did not soothe the wrath of God He endured it. He did not suppress or extinguish it as we would extinguish a fire; rather, He absorbed in His own soul the full, unmitigated fury of God's wrath against sin. To continue with the metaphor, He drank the cup of God's wrath to its last bitter drop. So for us who believe, the cup of God's wrath is empty.
I am biting my tongue on that atonement theology. But even though we differ on atonement, have a wonderful Easter.
He is risen!
You don't believe in God's wrath do you?
My dad was a Godly man. He disciplined me but it was always for my own good. That is how I perceive God's wrath.
How do you interpret God's wrath on humans He created?
Well, I certainly never would have described the prodigal son's father as exhibiting wrath; I'd describe his behavior far from wrath, the opposite in fact. The prodigal son received forgiveness not wrath.
I think where our understanding may differ is not on who the father represents but who the prodigal son represents.
The son represents a repentant sinner who God welcomes with open arms, not with wrath and judgement but with grace and forgiveness.
And I believe it begins with your view of atonement. Penal substitution atonement theology gives God a completely different character than other atonement theologies like Christus Victor, ransom, recapitulation, satisfaction, etc. And penal substitution was a late arrived on atonement views.
To me, my friend, these are not salvific issues. We just disagree as saints and theologians have done throughout history.
Have a wonderful Easter!
One of my dreams.Mark Fairchild said:
My wife and I have been on pilgrimage to the Holy Land, and have continuously been blessed immensely in our lives by those days. We arrived to walk the "Way of the Cross, Via Dolorosa" at 4:30 am. We did this to miss all the press of humanity that it becomes at day-break. If you have the opportunity to go to the Holy Land, TAKE IT! You will not regret it.
