Universals and Particulars - Plato and Aristotle in Western Thought

1,807 Views | 25 Replies | Last: 1 day ago by Zobel
Notafraid
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There was a thread that got me thinking about the Vatican, and I thought I’s share a little bit of some of the incredible things that Lovelight and I got to see there.

I was kind of actually on the lookout for this room, which is just another room among many many rooms, filled with masterpieces. Rafael painted this, and this is like his “room number 5” or something like that. Not sure if it was his hand exactly that did it all, because when an artist is said to have done something, if it’s really big, often he had a team of his students that painted exactly in his style… Anyway, not to get side tracked…

This is a pic of Plato (pointing up) and Aristotle (gesturing down)
It symbolizes the differences in their philosophies in that Plato focused on universals, and Aristotle focused on particulars.

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Here they are again, kind of doing the same thing:


[URL=http://imgur.com/CNb6N]



The effect that these two philosophers had on Western thought and culture was profound. Especially Aristotle, who’s view really kind of won out, because it was really the one we could access. Universals however have always been built more on authority. This is one reason, the Reformation kind of took off and helped pull culture out of the middle ages, because not only were we making leaps and bounds in the particulars, but we had more of a universal standard to appeal to (the bible).

So right now, we really are kind of at the end of what was the closest thing to a golden age, and since most of Western culture has thrown off the universal standards, even the particulars are beginning to lose meaning.



[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 1/27/2012 6:28p).]
Ogre
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Wow. Very nice observation NotAfraid.
torrid
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AG
Universities definitely need to teach the classical philosophers.
kurt vonnegut
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AG
torrid said:

Universities definitely need to teach the classical philosophers.


What!?! Even if one of those philosophers has some writings that can be linked to ideologies that make me triggered and scared?
Rocag
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AG
Plato is too woke for college, didn't you know that?
nortex97
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AG
The forms vs. universals discussion has nothing to do with woke or other silliness on campuses today.
Sapper Redux
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Your personal politics don't change the underlying philosophical questions. Those questions should be addressed in a university and not dictated by politicians.
Maximus of Tejas
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The only true golden age was the Byzantine Empire but Rome and others made sure to end it.
Maximus of Tejas
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What you are seeing as far as western culture goes is the end of a long line of nominalism. Western philosophy rejected the essence-energy distinction so it could never solve the problem of the one and the many and universals. It's unfortunate but that's what happens when you split from Christ.
Sapper Redux
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Maximus of Tejas said:

The only true golden age was the Byzantine Empire but Rome and others made sure to end it.


Lol. Byzantine emperors could make Caligula look restrained.
Maximus of Tejas
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Sapper Redux said:

Maximus of Tejas said:

The only true golden age was the Byzantine Empire but Rome and others made sure to end it.


Lol. Byzantine emperors could make Caligula look restrained.
There will always be ungodly men.
KingofHazor
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Quote:

There will always be ungodly men.

At some point, though, don't you have to start questioning the institution when it keeps producing unGodly men one after another? "By their fruits ye shall know them." And how does an institution and its leaders sit idly by when those unGodly men are engaging in constant depravities?
Maximus of Tejas
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KingofHazor said:

Quote:

There will always be ungodly men.

At some point, though, don't you have to start questioning the institution when it keeps producing unGodly men one after another? "By their fruits ye shall know them." And how does an institution and its leaders sit idly by when those unGodly men are engaging in constant depravities?
The Orthodox Church has always been decentralized which protects it from bad players. Since there is an unbroken tradition you can easily point out who produced bad fruit and why they were removed. The Church has anathema services. Ultimately this topic gets into the theanthropic nature of the Church and the entire worldview.
AGC
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AG
Is there an actual link to an article or explanation of this complaint? I'm highly skeptical that all Plato and Aristotle had been removed from the philosophy department. Seems more like one of those NPC lines for confirmation bias.
kurt vonnegut
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AG
AGC said:

Is there an actual link to an article or explanation of this complaint? I'm highly skeptical that all Plato and Aristotle had been removed from the philosophy department. Seems more like one of those NPC lines for confirmation bias.


Its more nuanced than simply 'Plato is banned'. I think professors can request and get approval for different materials. Nevertheless, it appears like a case of political pressure being used to censor higher education. . . because God forbid we allow adults to be subjected to different ideas.

I won't pretend to know the full details and nuances of the new university rules. The link below is just what google turned up.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/faculty-issues/academic-freedom/2026/01/07/plato-censored-texas-am-carries-out-course-review
AGC
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AG
kurt vonnegut said:

AGC said:

Is there an actual link to an article or explanation of this complaint? I'm highly skeptical that all Plato and Aristotle had been removed from the philosophy department. Seems more like one of those NPC lines for confirmation bias.


Its more nuanced than simply 'Plato is banned'. I think professors can request and get approval for different materials. Nevertheless, it appears like a case of political pressure being used to censor higher education. . . because God forbid we allow adults to be subjected to different ideas.

I won't pretend to know the full details and nuances of the new university rules. The link below is just what google turned up.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/faculty-issues/academic-freedom/2026/01/07/plato-censored-texas-am-carries-out-course-review



Quote:

One faculty memberphilosophy professor Martin Peterson, who is supposed to teach Contemporary Moral Problems this springwas asked by university leadership to remove several passages by Plato from his syllabus.

The Plato texts include passages from his Socratic dialogue Symposium (https://www.platonicfoundation.org/translation/symposium/) that discuss patriarchy, masculinity, gender identity and the human condition. In one excerpt, the "Myth of the Androgyne," the Greek playwright Aristophanes says, "First, you should learn the nature of humanity … for in the first place there were three kinds of human being and not two as nowadays, male and female. No, there was also a third kind, a combination of both genders."


Wonder what the 'moral problem' was. If this is really what's so dubious I think it's overstated. We're not overturning western canon here…
Zobel
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AG
KingofHazor said:

Quote:

There will always be ungodly men.

At some point, though, don't you have to start questioning the institution when it keeps producing unGodly men one after another? "By their fruits ye shall know them." And how does an institution and its leaders sit idly by when those unGodly men are engaging in constant depravities?

How many righteous kings did Israel produce in its entire history?
The Banned
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KingofHazor said:

Quote:

There will always be ungodly men.

At some point, though, don't you have to start questioning the institution when it keeps producing unGodly men one after another? "By their fruits ye shall know them." And how does an institution and its leaders sit idly by when those unGodly men are engaging in constant depravities?

Every single institution, secular or religious, is going to have "bad men" as a part of their group. Men are fallible. They will fail. If we want to toss out any "institution" that has bad actors, we can't even support the idea of the family because a certain percentage of parents are abusers, molesters, etc. Schools, both public and private. Police force. Fire fighters. The military. Charitable organizations. The 12 apostles. All of them include(d) unGodly men.

If we have to bat 1.000, or anywhere close to it, everyone is screwed.
KingofHazor
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Zobel said:

KingofHazor said:

Quote:

There will always be ungodly men.

At some point, though, don't you have to start questioning the institution when it keeps producing unGodly men one after another? "By their fruits ye shall know them." And how does an institution and its leaders sit idly by when those unGodly men are engaging in constant depravities?

How many righteous kings did Israel produce in its entire history?

That's your defense? Really? Help me out here; I don't understand how that is much of a defense. Or were you contributing it to support my point?
KingofHazor
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Hypothetically, what if the institution is batting 0.001? What if virtually all of the leadership, for centuries, is corrupt?

I can see the appeal of the RCC and the EOC. They are very appealing to me. However, what I cannot get past is the denial of the very real problems in those organizations and even the possibility that those problems may reflect deeper problems in the foundations of those organizations.

Y'all are quick to point out the problems in Protestant churches, which are very real, but go into immediate propaganda cover mode when anyone points out systemic problems in the RCC and/or EOC. It's impossible to have a meaningful discussion when one side constantly asserts that all of the problems exist on the other, and then denies that any systemic problems exist on their own.

With that said, I'm out of this conversation.
The Banned
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KingofHazor said:

Hypothetically, what if the institution is batting 0.001? What if virtually all of the leadership, for centuries, is corrupt?

I can see the appeal of the RCC and the EOC. They are very appealing to me. However, what I cannot get past is the denial of the very real problems in those organizations and even the possibility that those problems may reflect deeper problems in the foundations of those organizations.

Y'all are quick to point out the problems in Protestant churches, which are very real, but go into immediate propaganda cover mode when anyone points out systemic problems in the RCC and/or EOC. It's impossible to have a meaningful discussion when one side constantly asserts that all of the problems exist on the other, and then denies that any systemic problems exist on their own.

With that said, I'm out of this conversation.

I'm not pitching this as a protestant vs Catholic/EO issue. I was trying to show it's an "all of us" issue. For example, the sex abuse in the Catholic Church at it's height was estimated to be between 2-4% of the priest population. You find similar numbers among Protestant pastors. EO numbers are harder to find because the countries with heavy EO density don't investigate this stuff as heavily as America, but there are plenty examples one kind find with a google search.

I'm not tossing out Protestant theology or institutions because a small % of pastors are "bad men". If you could find me a church that was over 50% or some crazy high number like that, then sure, I'd toss that group out. I just don't see that group anywhere.
Zobel
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AG
Depending on how you count it's 3-8.

The point is that if a kingdom or entity in history's dependence on being righteous, God-ordained, or part of God's will is judged solely in a kind of numerical analysis of its rulers righteousness, Israel and Judah would either fail or set the bar reeeeeeally low.
Sapper Redux
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It's quite convenient how you can claim the mandate of divine favor or ordination and then excuse all behaviors and policies of the leadership.
ramblin_ag02
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AG
The Venn diagram of "Has the qualities to become supreme leader" and "has the qualities of a good person" has the circles barely touching
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Sapper Redux
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It's more common than assumed. Unless the goal is just to excuse whomever you want in charge.
ramblin_ag02
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AG
Sapper Redux said:

It's more common than assumed. Unless the goal is just to excuse whomever you want in charge.

Who is assuming? Studying history is a very time consuming hobby of mine. People like Cincinnatus, Aurelius, Washington, Josiah, and Edward the Confessor are notable exceptions to the greed, cruelty, and depravity of your typical supreme leader
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Zobel
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AG
I'm gonna be honest and say I have no idea how you got that from either of my two posts.

Can you maybe highlight the portion you're responding to where I said anything like that?
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